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[rnlval]

1. Okay. I am not sure what you want to highlight here. I suspect a date correction?

2. I have covered Dread on DoomWorld, here.

3. Vampire V4 is a niche device. It does not sell in the millions. Thus, manufactuering costs are significant, hence the high price. Then again a full Standalone system has a case, includes OS, memory, and custom Apollo core.

4. Has Buffee specific software? Does Buffee contain a new graphics processor or is it just brute forcing it through its Cortex cores?

5. But why would you, when the V4 is meant to propel AmigaOS 3.2 to new heights? Its not in the scope of the machine.

6. Do you have a link to that example? Unfortunately Hombre IGP has no real world performances figures last i checked.

7. Or how about 1993's Strike Commander? Pushing 3D worlds in 1993. Basically needs a Pentium.

8. Which is baffling really. I reckon that seeing the SuperFX2 co-processor, being programmable, he figured it was more flexible than AGA.

9. The 1600x1280 never really made sense - Even a PPC Amiga would struggle, requiring a rather fast PPC to pull it off. Or a Sam440EP.

EDIT: Ironically, the Sam440EP one was available as a prebuild - Relec: The Red One. Pretty nifty machine, 512 MB RAM built-in, as did a Radeon Mobility 9000.

10. It sure did! What's more, some Amiga ports had some unique/advanced features - ZhaDoomPPC was able to do 800x600 on a PPC Amiga in 1998 - Not a small feat.

1. Date correction.

68040 is for Doom
68060 is for Quake

2. Don't assume I'm not aware of the Amiga scene.

3. Hence my "gold plating" comment. Amiga hardware (Phase 5, Apollo Accelerators) from Germany doesn't help the A500 price segment and continues Amiga's 68030+ price wall.

4. In terms of basic design, Buffee is similar to PiStorm+Raspberry Pi combo. Buffee's Texas Instruments ARM-based System-on-Package has direct support for 68K bus, hence removing PiStorm's Intel Altera MAX II CPLD component.



PiStorm+Raspberry Pi combo yields 68040 @ 25Mhz like results.

ARM has hardware support for 68K's big-endian data format.


5. V4 wouldn't run Amiga's Unix System V, hence Amiga's Linux 68K. V4 didn't completely capture the Commodore-Amiga machine's scope.

6. Amiga Hombre's iGPU was said to be similar to PS1's triangle processing power.

7. Strike Commander's texture artwork looks crap. Texture artwork should have captured real-world pre-baked lighting color shades.

8. In terms of math processing power, SuperFX2 is similar to 68030. SuperFX2 is officially supported by Nintendo.

Commodore didn't officially support the 68030/68040 CPU card for Amiga 1200. Amiga 4000/030 and Amiga 4000/040 weren't price competitive when compared to 386DX33 and 486DX33 clone PC respectively. Apple Quadra 605 with 68LC040's $1000 USD tag is cheaper than the Amiga 4000/030 (with 68030 @ 25 Mhz).

9. Why "1600x1280"? This is not the issue.

10. Beyond VGA mode 13h on PC, the original Doom was ported to Windows and accelerated with OpenGL and Vulkan. In the PC world, the original Doom and Doom 2 was replaced by Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3, and Doom 3.

For Amiga 1200 with TF1260's power budget target with modern PC hardware.



Doom Eternal, Ryzen Pro 7 4750U 15W, 1280x720p, 50-to-60 fps, Medium Settings, Lenovo ThinkPad L14. I used the CPU affinity tool to limit thread CPU count which boosted iGPU's performance.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. Date correction.

Thanks.

2. Don't assume I'm not aware of the Amiga scene.

No need to get defensive. I merely posted that to denote that i am aware of Dread, and did so in a non-defensive manner.

3. Hence my "gold plating" comment. Amiga hardware (Phase 5, Apollo Accelerators) from Germany doesn't help the A500 price segment and continues Amiga's 68030+ price wall.

Part of that stems from the desire to continue to want to use classic processors - a 060 has been overpriced for years. Even the example given is considered by purists as too deviating from the real Amiga - Despite its improvements.

4. In terms of basic design, Buffee is similar to PiStorm+Raspberry Pi combo. Buffee's Texas Instruments ARM-based System-on-Package has direct support for 68K bus, hence removing PiStorm's Intel Altera MAX II CPLD component.

But, i reckon, AmigaOS will have to understand what the Buffee is , i suppose. So i assume that Buffee appears to the system as if it were a fast Amiga.

5. V4 wouldn't run Amiga's Unix System V, hence Amiga's Linux 68K.

That never was its intention either way, nor are most Amiga like projects as those are minor OSes for the platform.

V4 didn't completely capture the Commodore-Amiga machine's scope.

I am not sure how that's a criticism when the machine never planned for support on these OSes eitherway. Unless they specifically advertised for it, i am not sure why this is seen as something against Vampire.

6. Amiga Hombre's iGPU was said to be similar to PS1's triangle processing power.

On paper it certainly looks the part and even better in some cases if OpenGL features were guaranteed. But nothing to say for certain.

7. Strike Commander's texture artwork looks crap. Texture artwork should have captured real-world pre-baked lighting color shades.

Its developed from 1991-1993 on hardware generally assumed unsuited for texture mapping.

8. In terms of math processing power, SuperFX2 is similar to 68030. SuperFX2 is officially supported by Nintendo.

So why can Doom with full textures then run on a machine of that class and it has to resolve around a custom tailored-to-platform engine on SNES? Likely because Carmack thought less of Amiga.

9. Why "1600x1280"? This is not the issue.

That's the max resolution supported by ADoom and ADoomPPC.

10. Beyond VGA mode 13h on PC, the original Doom was ported to Windows and accelerated with OpenGL and Vulkan.

Tell me about it.

In the PC world, the original Doom and Doom 2 was replaced by Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3, and Doom 3.

How does that relate to my comment of ZhaDoomPPC being able to do 800x600 in AmigaOS?

For Amiga 1200 with TF1260's power budget target with modern PC hardware.

Meaning? You are posting gameplay from a PC build which TF1260 could have targeted otherwise, trying to highlight what kind of games were possible? Is that what you can extrapolate from this?

 

[rnlval]

Thanks.

No need to get defensive. I merely posted that to denote that i am aware of Dread, and did so in a non-defensive manner.


1. Part of that stems from the desire to continue to want to use classic processors - a 060 has been overpriced for years. Even the example given is considered by purists as too deviating from the real Amiga - Despite its improvements.


2. But, i reckon, AmigaOS will have to understand what the Buffee is , i suppose. So i assume that Buffee appears to the system as if it were a fast Amiga.


3. That never was its intention either way, nor are most Amiga like projects as those are minor OSes for the platform.


I am not sure how that's a criticism when the machine never planned for support on these OSes eitherway. Unless they specifically advertised for it, i am not sure why this is seen as something against Vampire.

On paper it certainly looks the part and even better in some cases if OpenGL features were guaranteed. But nothing to say for certain.


4. Its developed from 1991-1993 on hardware generally assumed unsuited for texture mapping.


5. So why can Doom with full textures then run on a machine of that class and it has to resolve around a custom tailored-to-platform engine on SNES? Likely because Carmack thought less of Amiga.

6. That's the max resolution supported by ADoom and ADoomPPC.

Tell me about it.

How does that relate to my comment of ZhaDoomPPC being able to do 800x600 in AmigaOS?

7. Meaning? You are posting gameplay from a PC build which TF1260 could have targeted otherwise, trying to highlight what kind of games were possible? Is that what you can extrapolate from this?

1. 68LC060 is cheap e.g. about $40 USD a few months ago. I bought 68060 rev 1 for $200 USD when entering 1st wave COVID-19.

Vampire V4 has about $668 USD translated from 567.00 Euro without VAT.

From the year 2010, https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/motorola-68060-upgrade.21589/#post-234916
"The 68060 processor costs something like $200+ new. Sure, they're available on the used market for about $50 but not reliably"

At the year 2010, the overpriced part is with Phase 5's "gold-plating" PCB.

2. Buffee is just ARM System-on-a-Package with software emulated 68K and a physical 68K bus. AmigaOS 68K doesn't need to know the ARM CPU just like the PiStorm+Raspberry Pi 3A combo.

For A1200, TF1200 Buffee adapter provides the IDE port. Somebody is working on a Raspberry Pi CM4 adapter for A1200.

3. "Vampire V4" lacks A500's and A1200's CPU card slot upgrade path.

For TF1260, I replaced 68LC060 into 68060 similar to an X86 PC desktop motherboard with a CPU socket.

"Vampire V4" is closer to a throw-away Andriod ARM-based device.

Linux and BSD 68K HAF image is on Aminet.

4. There's a difference between artwork quality and programming.

5. Commodore's official support for fast 68030 or 68040 CPU + fast RAM card for A1200 doesn't exist. Official support from the platform vendor is important. SNES officially supports SuperFX2. Apple released Quadra 605 with $1000 entry point and 68LC040 in H2 1993.

6. Immaterial to the year 1993 time period.

7. Improvement for Doom 1 and 2 is immaterial against gaming platforms with Doom Eternal, Doom 2016, Doom 3, Quake 4, Quake 3, Quake 2, and Quake 1.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. 68LC060 is cheap e.g. about $40 USD a few months ago. I bought 68060 rev 1 for $200 USD when entering 1st wave COVID-19.

200 bucks for a mere processor (Not so much an Amiga compatible accelerator) i find pretty hefty.

Vampire V4 has about $668 USD translated from 567.00 Euro without VAT.

Has been explained already, its a niche product. Producing that is more costly since you won't seel that much.

2. Buffee is just ARM System-on-a-Package with software emulated 68K and a physical 68K bus. AmigaOS 68K doesn't need to know the ARM CPU just like the PiStorm+Raspberry Pi 3A combo.

So it emulates the 68K but with a physical bus. Great.

3. "Vampire V4" lacks A500's and A1200's CPU card slot upgrade path.

Now you are making no sense - Its a softcore on a FPGA. That softcore is upgradeable with an update, and is a geniune 68k processor in all but hardware only. It does not need a CPU card slot upgrade, but i suspect that because it does not need it, its not entirely the same as an actual Amiga upgrade.

On the same notion i could argue that an A500 lacks SAGA by default. Which is technically true, but nobody would be arguing that.

"Vampire V4" is closer to a throw-away Andriod ARM-based device.

Opinions.

Linux and BSD 68K HAF image is on Aminet.

Again i am not sure why this is seen as something against Vampire.

4. There's a difference between artwork quality and programming.

There is also a difference between judging the game relative to its timeframe versus seeing it with the lens of today. It might be not up to your taste, but that's subjective.

5. Commodore's official support for fast 68030 or 68040 CPU + fast RAM card for A1200 doesn't exist. Official support from the platform vendor is important. SNES officially supports SuperFX2. Apple released Quadra 605 with $1000 entry point and 68LC040 in H2 1993.

That's not really answering the question.

6. Immaterial to the year 1993 time period.

I never was arguing that. You however are now bringing that (the 1993 time period) in as an additional variable to a discussion that isn't mines. I notice a tendency to bring in time-specific yet less relevant aspects to support your argument.

7. Improvement for Doom 1 and 2

I have frankly no idea how this correlates to what i was asking.

is immaterial against gaming platforms with Doom Eternal, Doom 2016, Doom 3, Quake 4, Quake 3, Quake 2, and Quake 1.

I cannot respond to such a vague (for me) remark.

 

[rnlval]

1. 200 bucks for a mere processor (Not so much an Amiga compatible accelerator) i find pretty hefty.

2. Has been explained already, its a niche product. Producing that is more costly since you won't seel that much.

So it emulates the 68K but with a physical bus. Great.

3. Now you are making no sense - Its a softcore on a FPGA. That softcore is upgradeable with an update, and is a geniune 68k processor in all but hardware only. It does not need a CPU card slot upgrade, but i suspect that because it does not need it, its not entirely the same as an actual Amiga upgrade.

4. On the same notion i could argue that an A500 lacks SAGA by default. Which is technically true, but nobody would be arguing that.

5. Opinions.

6. Again i am not sure why this is seen as something against Vampire.

7. There is also a difference between judging the game relative to its timeframe versus seeing it with the lens of today. It might be not up to your taste, but that's subjective.

8. That's not really answering the question.

9. I never was arguing that. You however are now bringing that (the 1993 time period) in as an additional variable to a discussion that isn't mines. I notice a tendency to bring in time-specific yet less relevant aspects to support your argument.

10. I have frankly no idea how this correlates to what i was asking.

11. I cannot respond to such a vague (for me) remark.

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.

2. TF1260 board is also a niche product and it's cheaper.

3. Vampire 1200 V2 (Intel Cyclone III) has been displaced by Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V) which is based on Vampire V4 (Intel Cyclone V). Vampire 1200 V2's FPU features 52-bit precision which doesn't match 68060 FPU's precision. FPGA has limits.

Vampire V4 changes are mostly dependent on a single source vendor while the real Amiga 1200's CPU slot upgrades have multiple vendor sources.

4. PiStorm+Raspberry Pi 3A combo has RTG support for Amiga 500. SAGA is like any wannabe VGA successors like XGA, various SVGA/VESA implementation, TIGA, Paradise Video Graphics Array (PVGAIA) in the PC market.

5. FPGA has limits e.g. Vampire 1200 V2 (Intel Cyclone III) was replaced by Ice Drake which is based on Vampire V4 with Intel Cyclone V FPGA. Vampire 1200 V2's FPU features 52-bit precision. My statement is based on the historical pattern.

6. Vampire V4's AC68080 should be renamed into AC68EC080 since it's missing 68K MMU. LOL. Real Amiga 2500 (68020/68851 MMU or 68030 with MMU), Amiga 3000 (68030 with MMU) Amiga 3000T (68030 or 68040 with MMU) and Amiga 4000**/A4000T (68040 with MMU).

**Amiga 4000/030 has 68EC030 without MMU.

7. Artwork matters along with technical aspects.

The release of Crysis was the killer app for major PC's upgrade cycle.

The release of Quake GL was the killer app for major PC's upgrade cycle. John Carmack put the boot in by claiming that the ViRGE could only run Quake at 5fps, and of course everybody laughed along with him. The general consensus of developers is that the ViRGE is a 'decelerator' that shouldn't be touched with a very long bargepole. S3 Virge "decelerator" damaged S3's reputation which they didn't recover from it.

The release of Quake was the killer app for major PC's upgrade cycle.

The release of Doom was the killer app for major PC's upgrade cycle. John Carmack damaged Amiga's gaming reputation which they didn't recover from it.

8. Platform holder's official support is important for 3rd party developers e.g. Nintendo's SuperFX2 and 486SX competitive priced Apple's Quadra 605 (68LC040).

9, 10, and 11. Amiga's Doom port unique features are not unique when PC Doom Windows ports have similar features. Your Amiga's Doom port unique feature argument is immaterial in 1993.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.

Its also the 060 CPU.

2. TF1260 board is also a niche product and it's cheaper.

That board isn't an FPGA with a softcore on it. Thus it is more expensive.

3. Vampire 1200 V2 (Intel Cyclone III) has been displaced by Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V) which is based on Vampire V4 (Intel Cyclone V). Vampire 1200 V2's FPU features 52-bit precision which doesn't match 68060 FPU's precision. FPGA has limits.

It doesn't need to be. Its brute forcing past the 060 and is several orders of magnitude faster than the fastest 060. Its limits are quite literally irrelevant and do not interfere with the software stack (It has been tested against demoscene productions)

Vampire V4 changes are mostly dependent on a single source vendor while the real Amiga 1200's CPU slot upgrades have multiple vendor sources.

I don't see why that's an issue. That vendor also develops the softcore.

4. PiStorm+Raspberry Pi 3A combo has RTG support for Amiga 500.

RTG is the standard for using run-of-the-mill VGA solutions. Ironically they delivered greater resolutions than AGA could, but its an API for standard VGA cards. Nothing less, nothing more.

SAGA is like any wannabe VGA successors like XGA, various SVGA/VESA implementation, TIGA, Paradise Video Graphics Array (PVGAIA) in the PC market.

No, its an expansion on the existing AGA platform. To take advantage of it, Software needs to take it into account. This is still in the developing stages, but Milkytracker atleast has a Vampire port with significant additions.

5. FPGA has limits e.g. Vampire 1200 V2 (Intel Cyclone III) was replaced by Ice Drake which is based on Vampire V4 with Intel Cyclone V FPGA. Vampire 1200 V2's FPU features 52-bit precision. My statement is based on the historical pattern.

To coin your phrasing, its immaterial (i prefer irrelevant) since the 68080 brute forces its way past 060 performance.

7. Artwork matters along with technical aspects.

So does subjectivity versus objectivity.

John Carmack put the boot in by claiming that the ViRGE could only run Quake at 5fps, and of course everybody laughed along with him. The general consensus of developers is that the ViRGE is a 'decelerator' that shouldn't be touched with a very long bargepole. S3 Virge "decelerator" damaged S3's reputation which they didn't recover from it.

S3 Virge can deliver playable performance in games at just about PSX level (512x384). Jedi Knight in particular runs well on VirGe cards. Agreed that even its most expansive form (Trio3D), its still a far cry from something like a Voodoo.

John Carmack damaged Amiga's gaming reputation which they didn't recover from it.

One of the things, yes. Commodore's marketing strategy as a whole damaged its reputation as a whole.

9, 10, and 11. Amiga's Doom port unique features are not unique when PC Doom Windows ports have similar features. Your Amiga's Doom port unique feature argument is immaterial in 1993.

Flying in ZhaDoomPPC was a unique feature that was not mimicked in Doom, back in 1998. In 1998, you had DOSDoom, Legacy and ZDoom as major ports and none had this feature. The only thing time-frame specific that mimicked it was Airstrik and that was a specific executable hack based off Legacy and not a general source port.

Again i am not talking about 1993, you are.

 

[CitizenZ]

Ill never forget the system was so hyped as computers started to be come affordable for the homes, they did a demo showcase at my school. The one game that made everyone was like, wow, was Dr. j vs larry Bird. Still was way over priced and therefore C-64 for the win.

 

[Havoc2049]

Ill never forget the system was so hyped as computers started to be come affordable for the homes, they did a demo showcase at my school. The one game that made everyone was like, wow, was Dr. j vs larry Bird. Still was way over priced and therefore C-64 for the win.

Haha, that was the early days of the Amiga. I remember my uncle taking me to a next-gen computer show when I was a teenager, featuring the Amiga, Atari ST and Mac. One on One basketball did draw in the crowds with its digitized sfx. I remember seeing Mindshadow, Borrowed Time and Articfox at the show as well. Articfox is the game that blew me away, as it had polygon 3D objects instead of wire framed objects. As soon as I joined the next-gen computer race and got an Atari 1040ST, Articfox was one of the first games I bought.



It was the C64 for the win. The Amiga could never match the success of the C64. From 1985 to 1995, the Amiga only outsold the C64 two of those years, the first two years of the Amiga 500. By 1990, the Amiga and Atari ST were dead men walking through a dying and shrinking forest. Still some great games on those platforms during that time though.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

Once the Megadrive and the SNES entered the race then of course the Amiga died.

Going from games at a max £25 that would be hacked and on a BBS same day of release if not sooner to a model of charging £50 to £60 for a cartridge with (at the time) little to no piracy, or at least school playground piracy, then no wonder Amiga and ST started to die off.

Ocean started on SNES ports, EA to the Megadrive and the money started rolling in and the rest is history.

 

[John Wick]

anyone know wherabouts of the bitmap brothers?

Ah the Amiga. Good old times
It had some of the best soundtrack work.


The soundtrack still amazes to this day.
Shadow of the Beast had a fantastic one as well.
Probably some of my most cherished memories of gaming.
Also the demo scene was fantastic. Someone did one using Snap's The Power song.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

Bitmaps sold all back catalogue rights / swallowed up by Rebellion.

 

[rnlval]

1. Its also the 060 CPU.

2. That board isn't an FPGA with a softcore on it. Thus it is more expensive.

3. It doesn't need to be. Its brute forcing past the 060 and is several orders of magnitude faster than the fastest 060. Its limits are quite literally irrelevant and do not interfere with the software stack (It has been tested against demoscene productions)

4. I don't see why that's an issue. That vendor also develops the softcore.

5. RTG is the standard for using run-of-the-mill VGA solutions. Ironically they delivered greater resolutions than AGA could, but its an API for standard VGA cards. Nothing less, nothing more.

6. No, its an expansion on the existing AGA platform. To take advantage of it, Software needs to take it into account. This is still in the developing stages, but Milkytracker atleast has a Vampire port with significant additions.

To coin your phrasing, its immaterial (i prefer irrelevant) since the 68080 brute forces its way past 060 performance.

So does subjectivity versus objectivity.

S3 Virge can deliver playable performance in games at just about PSX level (512x384). Jedi Knight in particular runs well on VirGe cards. Agreed that even its most expansive form (Trio3D), its still a far cry from something like a Voodoo.

One of the things, yes. Commodore's marketing strategy as a whole damaged its reputation as a whole.

Flying in ZhaDoomPPC was a unique feature that was not mimicked in Doom, back in 1998. In 1998, you had DOSDoom, Legacy and ZDoom as major ports and none had this feature. The only thing time-frame specific that mimicked it was Airstrik and that was a specific executable hack based off Legacy and not a general source port.

Again i am not talking about 1993, you are.

1. For 68060's year 2010 price, it's $200 new or $50 secondhand.

2. The TF1260 populated board (minus the 68060 CPU) cost is $300 USD which is cheaper than any of Apollo's FPGA-based V2 and V4 accelerators.
$300 USD in 2021 is $160 in the year 1994. For Doom-type games, 68LC060 was offered for about $35 to $60.

Vampire v4 (Cyclone V-based FPGA) has 567€ or $673.51 USD.

Apollo Icedrake V4 (Cyclone V based FPGA) for A1200 is 450€ or $534.76 USD

Apollo Accelerators went into Phase 5 "gold plating" pricing direction relative to "non-Amiga" Cyclone V kits e.g. Terasic Technologies P0150 with Cyclone V Kit for $313.71 AUD or $233.98 USD. Cyclone V-based FPGA kits can be cheaper than $233.98 USD.

FPGA Softcore doesn't automatically equal lower cost.

3. Hence my "gold-plating" argument on Vampire v2/v4. The fastest Amiga 68080 CPU has SysInfo ~160 MIPS and ~80 MFLOPS while overclocked Vampire V4 has SysInfo 204 MIPS and 108 MFLOPS (http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2&note=20966&z=iqOuC6).

Vampire v2/v4's AC68080 is also missing 68K MMU, hence it doesn't have the absolute feature set superiority over the MC68060. 68K MMU is useful for Amiga apps development.

Atm, Bogo MIPS from the Buffee project is meaningless since it's not Sysinfo's MIPS and MFLOPS comparison.

My classic Pentium PC in 1996 wasn't the top Pentium 200 Mhz, it was Pentium 150 Mhz which is a 3rd tier lower than 166 Mhz and 200 Mhz SKUs.
I bought my GeForce 4 Ti 4200 SKU was a 3rd tier lower than GeForce 4 Ti 4400 and GeForce 4 Ti4600.

4. Vampire V4 standalone doesn't replicate A500/A1200's multi-vendor CPU upgrade paths and Amiga's upgradability is part of "Commodore-Amiga"'s hardware characteristics.

5. Amiga's RTG can support non-VGA chipsets like A2410 (TIGA). Don't stereotype post-VGA chipsets are the same when post-VGA chipsets went in many directions i.e. there's no SVGA standard, hence the reason for WIndows safe mode is the classic VGA.

VESA's SVGA BIOS attempted to abstract various post-VGA chipsets with varying implementations which can be broken.

6. Apollo-Accelerator is not Commodore nor it has the Amiga IP.

Apollo-Accelerator does NOT have Amiga IP i.e. refer to Cloanto (current Amiga Inc) and ACER (classic Amiga hardware-related patent holder).

Apollo-Accelerator is like any other post-VGA chipset vendor, but for the Amiga market.

My PC WinUAE brute forces its way past Vampire V4 performance. I'm using beta WinUAE 4.9 with Voodoo 3D OpenGL support and PowerPC. WinUAE 4.9 includes CyberVision64/3D (S3 Virge), CyberVision64 (S3 Trio 64), Voodoo 3 PCI, S3 Virge PCI emulation (chip emulation from PCem).

 

[rnlval]

Its also the 060 CPU.

That board isn't an FPGA with a softcore on it. Thus it is more expensive.

It doesn't need to be. Its brute forcing past the 060 and is several orders of magnitude faster than the fastest 060. Its limits are quite literally irrelevant and do not interfere with the software stack (It has been tested against demoscene productions)

I don't see why that's an issue. That vendor also develops the softcore.

RTG is the standard for using run-of-the-mill VGA solutions. Ironically they delivered greater resolutions than AGA could, but its an API for standard VGA cards. Nothing less, nothing more.

No, its an expansion on the existing AGA platform. To take advantage of it, Software needs to take it into account. This is still in the developing stages, but Milkytracker atleast has a Vampire port with significant additions.

To coin your phrasing, its immaterial (i prefer irrelevant) since the 68080 brute forces its way past 060 performance.

So does subjectivity versus objectivity.

S3 Virge can deliver playable performance in games at just about PSX level (512x384). Jedi Knight in particular runs well on VirGe cards. Agreed that even its most expansive form (Trio3D), its still a far cry from something like a Voodoo.

One of the things, yes. Commodore's marketing strategy as a whole damaged its reputation as a whole.

Flying in ZhaDoomPPC was a unique feature that was not mimicked in Doom, back in 1998. In 1998, you had DOSDoom, Legacy and ZDoom as major ports and none had this feature. The only thing time-frame specific that mimicked it was Airstrik and that was a specific executable hack based off Legacy and not a general source port.

Again i am not talking about 1993, you are.

Vampire 2.7 FPU Part 2 | ALBs Blog

blog.alb42.de

I played a little bit more with the Vampire FPU the yesterdays example shows an other interesting effect, the calculation of a * 1.3 shows an incorrect result. There is some problem in the last places when comparing with 68882 A1200 or 68060 UAE.
Let’s dig a little bit deeper into that, test how well the double precision calculation works. MUIMapparium needs Double precision everywhere, I tested to make it single but the calculation really get very wrong results (Eiffel tower somewhere near London, such stuff). To test double precision we multiply a very small value to 1 very often to see if it correctly handle the bits. for example like this:

program testfpu;
{$mode objfpc}
var
i: Integer;
b: Double;
begin
b := 1;
for i := 1 to 100000 do
begin
b := b * 1.0000000001;
end;
writeln(b);
end.

as you can see we multiply the 1 in b with 1 and a very little bit more, and this little bit more is just over the single precision limit. How the result look like:

Vampire 2.7	1.0000000000000000E+000
Amiga 1200 68882	1.0000100000502183E+000
Linux x86_64	1.0000100000494698E+000

ehm.. no Vampire thats wrong. Seems it does calculate all FPU calculations in single precision, so even they repair the rounding problem MUIMapparium still would be not usable.
Btw. I tried the same thing with the FEmu back in the days and it worked, as expected.
So maybe thats also the reason for the very good benchmark results… you make the calculations in single instead of double of course you can be much faster (and the original 68k FPUs calculate everything in extented so even more precise). I really think about to go back to Gold 2, it was slower but reliable.
As always the downloads: TestFPU3, TestFPU3.pas

--------------------

In the X86 world, FPU math flaw leads to a product recall. Modern x86-64 CPUs still support x86 MMUs and x87 FP. x87's 80 bit FP can be used to emulate Motorola's 68K FPUs in WinUAE.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. For 68060's year 2010 price, it's $200 new or $50 secondhand.

Expensive for just a processor. And not like there are many made.

2. The TF1260 populated board (minus the 68060 CPU) cost is $300 USD which is cheaper than any of Apollo's FPGA-based V2 and V4 accelerators.
$300 USD in 2021 is $160 in the year 1994. For Doom-type games, 68LC060 was offered for about $35 to $60.

Expensive for the board. So its either 500 USD for the board + a new 68060 processor based on year 2010, or 350.

Which is overall, still quite expensive. Vampire V4 Standalone isn't cheap either, mind you, but its an all-in package, not just a board and a processor.

FPGA Softcore doesn't automatically equal lower cost.

Not that i implied any of that, either way...

3. Hence my "gold-plating" argument on Vampire v2/v4. The fastest Amiga 68080 CPU has SysInfo ~160 MIPS and ~80 MFLOPS while overclocked Vampire V4 has SysInfo 204 MIPS and 108 MFLOPS (http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2&note=20966&z=iqOuC6).

And that's just the CPU. Its ofcourse nothing compared to even a barebones Atom processor, but for Amiga, its performant.

Vampire v2/v4's AC68080 is also missing 68K MMU, hence it doesn't have the absolute feature set superiority over the MC68060.

This has been addressed already.

68K MMU is useful for Amiga apps development.

Apparently the 68080 does have a MMU.

I bought my GeForce 4 Ti 4200 SKU was a 3rd tier lower than GeForce 4 Ti 4400 and GeForce 4 Ti4600.

Since this isn't relevant, I have a Core i5-4590T with a HD 4600. Its lower than the Intel Iris range that came after it.

4. Vampire V4 standalone doesn't replicate A500/A1200's multi-vendor CPU upgrade paths

It doesn't have to be, its an entirely new processor on a FPGA core. There is no 68K upgrade path since it performs several orders of magnitude faster than a 060. It doesn't have to replicate that path and even if it somehow has to, they could develop a new softcore. This is FPGA in general.

If you want to be literal then the V4 is automatically cancelled since its using a FPGA softcore and not an actual (as in, physical) 68k processor.

You seem convinced that in order for it to be deemed an Amiga, it should follow its characteristics. Yet at the same time you champion other projects like Buffee - which have the same pitfalls. *

* They aren't really pitfalls but since you seem to want to put these machines into a different kind of bracket, i guess its fair to say this.

5. Amiga's RTG can support non-VGA chipsets like A2410 (TIGA).

Which is a completely outdated standard that was only used in the professional market. Or, in your words, its immaterial.

Don't stereotype post-VGA chipsets are the same when post-VGA chipsets went in many directions i.e. there's no SVGA standard, hence the reason for WIndows safe mode is the classic VGA.

RTG in general were existing VGA chips like Trio64 and Tseng ET4000 to provide higher resolutions on Amiga. RTG brought some of the PC commodity to Amiga and it became clear that AGA's unique (compared to RTG-cards) architecture was less and less performant.

6. Apollo-Accelerator is not Commodore nor it has the Amiga IP.

You mark this as a response to No, its an expansion on the existing AGA platform. To take advantage of it, Software needs to take it into account. This is still in the developing stages, but Milkytracker atleast has a Vampire port with significant additions. but its neither a response to that nor a response to anything said in the comment in general.

My PC WinUAE brute forces its way past Vampire V4 performance.

So does practically ever other non-Amiga machine out there. This is grasping for imaginary straws.

 

[mitchman]

Hey folks. I have a couple of Amigas in the basement that hasn't been turned on in 20 years. Now one of them contains a lot of stuff on SCSI disks, including source code and music I don't have anywhere else. I would like to take an image of the disks onto my PC to run in an emulator as I expect the hardware to be dead by now. Will any scsi controller for PC work (not that many of them, but still), any tips here?

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

Hey folks. I have a couple of Amigas in the basement that hasn't been turned on in 20 years. Now one of them contains a lot of stuff on SCSI disks, including source code and music I don't have anywhere else. I would like to take an image of the disks onto my PC to run in an emulator as I expect the hardware to be dead by now. Will any scsi controller for PC work (not that many of them, but still), any tips here?

Maybe try asking here:-

English Amiga Board

English amiga forum since 2001

eab.abime.net

Dedicated Amiga nuts.

 

[rnlval]

1. Expensive for just a processor. And not like there are many made.

2. Expensive for the board. So its either 500 USD for the board + a new 68060 processor based on year 2010, or 350.

3. Which is overall, still quite expensive. Vampire V4 Standalone isn't cheap either, mind you, but its an all-in package, not just a board and a processor.

Not that i implied any of that, either way...

And that's just the CPU. Its ofcourse nothing compared to even a barebones Atom processor, but for Amiga, its performant.

This has been addressed already.

4. Apparently the 68080 does have a MMU.

5. Since this isn't relevant, I have a Core i5-4590T with a HD 4600. Its lower than the Intel Iris range that came after it.

6. It doesn't have to be, its an entirely new processor on a FPGA core. There is no 68K upgrade path since it performs several orders of magnitude faster than a 060. It doesn't have to replicate that path and even if it somehow has to, they could develop a new softcore. This is FPGA in general.

7. If you want to be literal then the V4 is automatically cancelled since its using a FPGA softcore and not an actual (as in, physical) 68k processor.

8. You seem convinced that in order for it to be deemed an Amiga, it should follow its characteristics. Yet at the same time you champion other projects like Buffee - which have the same pitfalls. *

* They aren't really pitfalls but since you seem to want to put these machines into a different kind of bracket, i guess its fair to say this.


Which is a completely outdated standard that was only used in the professional market. Or, in your words, its immaterial.

9. RTG in general were existing VGA chips like Trio64 and Tseng ET4000 to provide higher resolutions on Amiga. RTG brought some of the PC commodity to Amiga and it became clear that AGA's unique (compared to RTG-cards) architecture was less and less performant.

You mark this as a response to No, its an expansion on the existing AGA platform. To take advantage of it, Software needs to take it into account. This is still in the developing stages, but Milkytracker atleast has a Vampire port with significant additions. but its neither a response to that nor a response to anything said in the comment in general.

So does practically ever other non-Amiga machine out there. This is grasping for imaginary straws.

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.

MOTOROLA PLANS TO SAMPLE THE 68060 NEXT QUARTER - Tech Monitor

Motorola Inc yesterday finally launched the long-promised 68060 follow-on to the 68040, claiming that it matches the performance of the Intel Corp Pentium at

techmonitor.ai

Date: April 1994

Motorola Inc yesterday finally launched the long-promised 68060 follow-on to the 68040, claiming that it matches the performance of the Intel Corp Pentium at less than half the price – it costs $263 at 50MHz when you order 10,000 or more.
.....
There are also cheaper 68LC060 and 68EC060 variants of the new part, which omit the memory manager, and both the memory manager and the floating point unit; they cost $169 and $150 respectively for 10,000-up.

--- end of quote ----

In 1994 and for 10,000 lot batch, 68060 cost less than classic Pentium.


For 0.6 μm second-generation classic Pentium's release date
October 1994 = Pentium 75.
March 1994 = Pentium 90 and Pentium 100.
March 1995 = Pentium 120

68060 also has 0.6 μm process node.


For 0.35 μm 3rd-generation classic Pentium's release date
March 1995 = Pentium 120
June 1995 = Pentium 133
January 1996 = Pentium 150 and Pentium 166
June 1996 = Pentium 200

With each Pentium SKU release, it pushes the older SKU's price lower. There are also competitive pressures from 586 clones.

When Quake arrives in June 1996, it's cheaper to buy a PC clone with Intel Pentium 150/S3 Trio 64UV PCI OEM/Yamaha OPL3 16bit PnP ISA OEM when compared to Phase 5's "Made in Germany" CyberGraphics 64 (S3 Trio 64U) and CyberStorm 060.

Uncompetitive price from Phase 5 is a major price factor let alone buying AMIGA Technologies GmbH (from Germany)'s uncompetitive priced Amiga 4000/060.

2. With TF1260, there's an option for a lower entry-priced option with 68LC060. Doom doesn't need an FPU. I have Quake Remaster, Quake 2 RTX, and Quake 3 Remaster on the PC.

$300 in year 2021 is about $160 in year 1994.

3. With TF1260, there's an option for a lower entry-priced option with 68LC060. Why keep focusing on the full 68060? Haven't you learned from Apple's Quadra 605's 68LC040 that countered 486SX25 based PC in H2 1993?

68060's price varies from Rev 1 to Rev 6 and LC variants.

4. Again, not 68K MMU. Imaginary straws come from you.

Intel's Cyclone V SoC FPGA devices include a dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore.

5. Intel offered a lower price entry point, and you missed this point. I have Ryzen 7 4750G 14-inch laptop and AMD offers lower entry price points with lesser Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 3 APUs that include the same tech generation.

Steam Deck has $399 entry price point with AMD's Van Gogh APU.

6. A1200's CPU upgrade path is multi-vendor and you missed this point. There are solutions beyond 68060 following Apple M1's fast X86 emulation example.

7. Not my argument. Imaginary straws come from you.

8. Not my argument. Buffee project doesn't pretend to be a standalone Amiga machine and it's a generic 68K DIP upgrade. Refer to my 6th point. Imaginary straws come from you.

9. SVGA chipsets are not the same when they have different drivers. VESA BIOS attempts abstract the hardware implementation differences, but they are useless for non-X86 CPUs.

10. Grasping for imaginary straws come from you.

 

[rnlval]

Hey folks. I have a couple of Amigas in the basement that hasn't been turned on in 20 years. Now one of them contains a lot of stuff on SCSI disks, including source code and music I don't have anywhere else. I would like to take an image of the disks onto my PC to run in an emulator as I expect the hardware to be dead by now. Will any scsi controller for PC work (not that many of them, but still), any tips here?

For legacy SCSI controllers, 64 bit Windows 7/8/10 would be a problem. My home server runs with Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) and Windows 2012 R2 Standard Edition. I have Windows XP 32 bit PC for legacy SCSI.

For Amiga with SCSI... Amiga 3000 perhaps? Check the battery clock for leakage. For any computer, remove the battery clock for long-term storage.

 

[Fredrik]

Hey folks. I have a couple of Amigas in the basement that hasn't been turned on in 20 years. Now one of them contains a lot of stuff on SCSI disks, including source code and music I don't have anywhere else. I would like to take an image of the disks onto my PC to run in an emulator as I expect the hardware to be dead by now. Will any scsi controller for PC work (not that many of them, but still), any tips here?

I bought a Kryoflux for this reason, it’s a little thing you can use to rip floppy disks into adf files, for use in emulators. You need this device and a 3.5” floppy drive.

I have all my ”important” stuff from my Amiga days secured now, Noisetracker module, Deluxe Paint art, AMOS saves.

Castle - AMOS game I made on Amiga 500, here played on the Xbox Series X !!
This might be the oldest, crappiest and most indie indie game you’ll ever see a full playthrough of lol



Edit: Hmm, missed that you only have the things on harddrives, then this won’t work, Kryoflux is only a floppy drive USB controller. I googled a bit and it looks like WinUAE can read Amiga drives.

Read an Amiga Hard Drive on my PC - Page 1

Read an Amiga Hard Drive on my PC - Page 1

forum.amiga.org

 

[rnlval]

I bought a Kryoflux for this reason, it’s a little thing you can use to rip floppy disks into adf files, for use in emulators. You need this device and a 3.5” floppy drive.

I have all my ”important” stuff from my Amiga days secured now, Noisetracker module, Deluxe Paint art, AMOS saves.

Castle - AMOS game I made on Amiga 500, here played on the Xbox Series X !!
This might be the oldest, crappiest and most indie indie game you’ll ever see a full playthrough of lol

FYI, SCSI is not a floppy drive i.e. SCSI disks.

I use Amiga 1200's Compact Flash (formatted in FAT32) PCMCIA feature to transfer files with a Windows 10 PC.

 

[Fredrik]

FYI, SCSI is not a floppy drive.

Yeah I got too carried away there, Kryoflux has just been such a saviour for my old stuff, best retro investment ever for me.
Looks like WinUAE can read Amiga harddrives though? Edited my post with some talk.

 

[rnlval]

I bought a Kryoflux for this reason, it’s a little thing you can use to rip floppy disks into adf files, for use in emulators. You need this device and a 3.5” floppy drive.

I have all my ”important” stuff from my Amiga days secured now, Noisetracker module, Deluxe Paint art, AMOS saves.

Castle - AMOS game I made on Amiga 500, here played on the Xbox Series X !!
This might be the oldest, crappiest and most indie indie game you’ll ever see a full playthrough of lol



Edit: Hmm, missed that you only have the things on harddrives, then this won’t work, Kryoflux is only a floppy drive USB controller. I googled a bit and it looks like WinUAE can read Amiga drives.

Read an Amiga Hard Drive on my PC - Page 1

Read an Amiga Hard Drive on my PC - Page 1

forum.amiga.org

FYI, Amiga 4000 and 1200 include an IDE port.

 

[rnlval]

Yeah I got too carried away there, Kryoflux has just been such a saviour for my old stuff, best retro investment ever for me.
Looks like WinUAE can read Amiga harddrives though? Edited my post with some talk.

I also use WinUAE to create Workbench and Work partitions for my Amiga 1200's 32 GB SD Card that uses SD Card to IDE adapter.

Administration mode WinUAE can read and write Amiga IDE storage devices.

Amiga 4000 and 1200 are closer to normal desktop PCs when compared to SCSI-only Amigas. I do have legacy Adaptec SCSI PCI cards for Windows XP PC, but I sold my Amiga 3000 in 1996.

 

[mitchman]

Yeah, specifically, my main computer was a A2000 with Zeus 040 28MHz and it has no floppy drives, only SCSI. rnlval , does the Adaptec controller read the Amiga SCSI drives, have you tested it? I see amazon might have one of those.

 

[rnlval]

Yeah, specifically, my main computer was a A2000 with Zeus 040 28MHz and it has no floppy drives, only SCSI. rnlval , does the Adaptec controller read the Amiga SCSI drives, have you tested it? I see amazon might have one of those.

I don't have an Amiga with SCSI (scsi.device) to test since I sold my Amiga 3000/030 in 1996. My current Amiga is A1200 with TF1260 (68060 @ 62.5Mhz, 128 MB SDRAM with 100 Mhz rating) card. Both A1200 and TF1260 have IDE ports.

For attaching and reading real SCSI drive on PC/WinUAE, refer to http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=87209 or https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=70988.0 (using Adaptec SCSI on the Windows PC and WinUAE)

 

[Redneckerz]

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.

That's great. Nevertheless the pricings given by you still remain steep - as i've already said.

Uncompetitive price from Phase 5 is a major price factor let alone buying AMIGA Technologies GmbH (from Germany)'s uncompetitive priced Amiga 4000/060.

Good thing there are better-performing alternatives, then!

2. With TF1260, there's an option for a lower entry-priced option with 68LC060.

Its still expensive no matter how you slice it - And which i acknowledged, either way. The thing is whether or not you shell 300+ for the real classic experience, or 600+ for something many times faster - But which by purist standard isn't a classic Amiga.

Neither option is wrong if you ask me.

Doom doesn't need an FPU. I have Quake Remaster, Quake 2 RTX, and Quake 3 Remaster on the PC.

Relevancy to the subject discussed?

$300 in year 2021 is about $160 in year 1994.

Forgive me for not adjusting it to 1994 prices and stick to current prices and compare those to the current price of a Vampire V4 Standalone.

Being into Amiga is an expensive endeavor regardless whether you use Classic components or go for an Amiga NG machine.

3. With TF1260, there's an option for a lower entry-priced option with 68LC060. Why keep focusing on the full 68060?

Demoscene hardware typically is a 060 at 50 Mhz and 64 MB ram. Evidentially this is also a top-end AGA system.

4. Again, not 68K MMU. Imaginary straws come from you.

Depending on who you ask that still classifies as a 68k MMU. Just not one you may expect.

And again, a 080 brute forces things along the way. Nothing straws about it. Its not my concern you want to deny that, or imply the ARM cores have a matter without specifying why.

5. Intel offered a lower price entry point, and you missed this point.

Evidently since i answered to 5. Amiga's RTG can support non-VGA chipsets like A2410 (TIGA).

I don't see a reference to Intel or Ryzen in there.

On a related note, you missed my point that the Atari ST also has a 68000 processor.

I have Ryzen 7 4750G 14-inch laptop and AMD offers lower entry price points with lesser Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 3 APUs that include the same tech generation.

Correct. I mean if you just want me to confirm or deny random statements that have nothing to do with what is discussed, i am all up for it, but you ought to make a general statements thread then.

6. A1200's CPU upgrade path is multi-vendor and you missed this point.

Again, that's not what you were saying. I responded to 6. Apollo-Accelerator is not Commodore nor it has the Amiga IP.

There is no mention of what you are describing.

There are solutions beyond 68060 following Apple M1's fast X86 emulation example.

This is stating the obvious, not the specific.

7. Not my argument. Imaginary straws come from you.

Hence i said ''If you want to be literal.'' as that seemed your modus operandi at the time. I just followed that train of thought along. So if that's not your argument - Great!

Start being more specific instead of taking random statements out of thin air. You may find i threw atleast one example of such a statement somewhere in this response to get the point across.

8. Not my argument. Buffee project doesn't pretend to be a standalone Amiga machine and it's a generic 68K DIP upgrade. Refer to my 6th point. Imaginary straws come from you.

* They aren't really pitfalls but since you seem to want to put these machines into a different kind of bracket, i guess its fair to say this.

9. SVGA chipsets are not the same when they have different drivers.

Good thing the RTG cards generally held the same capabilities on the hardware level then!

10. Grasping for imaginary straws come from you.

So because i answer your ''My PC WinUAE brute forces its way past Vampire V4 performance.'' with So does practically ever other non-Amiga machine out there. This is grasping for imaginary straws. i am the one grasping straws?

You are stating the obvious. I can make a few of my own, such as saying that a RTX 3080 vastly outpaces the Amiga AGA chipset and blasts away SAGA performance. This statement would be totally correct. It would also be totally redundant because these graphical cores are vastly different, both in performance, generation, and target goal.

Make relatable statements instead of absolute ones.

 

[rnlval]

1. That's great. Nevertheless the pricings given by you still remain steep - as i've already said.

2. Good thing there are better-performing alternatives, then!

3. Its still expensive no matter how you slice it - And which i acknowledged, either way. The thing is whether or not you shell 300+ for the real classic experience, or 600+ for something many times faster - But which by purist standard isn't a classic Amiga.

Neither option is wrong if you ask me.

4. Relevancy to the subject discussed?

5. Forgive me for not adjusting it to 1994 prices and stick to current prices and compare those to the current price of a Vampire V4 Standalone.

6. Being into Amiga is an expensive endeavor regardless whether you use Classic components or go for an Amiga NG machine.

Demoscene hardware typically is a 060 at 50 Mhz and 64 MB ram. Evidentially this is also a top-end AGA system.

7. Depending on who you ask that still classifies as a 68k MMU. Just not one you may expect.

And again, a 080 brute forces things along the way. Nothing straws about it. Its not my concern you want to deny that, or imply the ARM cores have a matter without specifying why.

Evidently since i answered to 5. Amiga's RTG can support non-VGA chipsets like A2410 (TIGA).

8. I don't see a reference to Intel or Ryzen in there.

9. On a related note, you missed my point that the Atari ST also has a 68000 processor.


Correct. I mean if you just want me to confirm or deny random statements that have nothing to do with what is discussed, i am all up for it, but you ought to make a general statements thread then.

10. Again, that's not what you were saying. I responded to 6. Apollo-Accelerator is not Commodore nor it has the Amiga IP.

There is no mention of what you are describing.

This is stating the obvious, not the specific.

Hence i said ''If you want to be literal.'' as that seemed your modus operandi at the time. I just followed that train of thought along. So if that's not your argument - Great!

Start being more specific instead of taking random statements out of thin air. You may find i threw atleast one example of such a statement somewhere in this response to get the point across.

* They aren't really pitfalls but since you seem to want to put these machines into a different kind of bracket, i guess its fair to say this.

11. Good thing the RTG cards generally held the same capabilities on the hardware level then!

So because i answer your ''My PC WinUAE brute forces its way past Vampire V4 performance.'' with So does practically ever other non-Amiga machine out there. This is grasping for imaginary straws. i am the one grasping straws?

You are stating the obvious. I can make a few of my own, such as saying that a RTX 3080 vastly outpaces the Amiga AGA chipset and blasts away SAGA performance. This statement would be totally correct. It would also be totally redundant because these graphical cores are vastly different, both in performance, generation, and target goal.

Make relatable statements instead of absolute ones.

1. In 1994, 68060 @ 50Mhz's cost wasn't steep relative to Intel's classic Pentium. Phase 5 boards "gold plated" the cheaper than Pentium CPU (a.k.a 68060 @ 50 Mhz) and S3 Trio 64U/S3 Virge 3D PC parts.

Also, S3 Virge 3D was competing against other GPU cards, not by itself.

From https://vintage3d.org/virge.php#sthash.OO8ZA9x3.dpbs
S3 Virge 3D has bad drivers. S3 Virge 3D has bad a GLQuake experience.

I owned S3 Virge 3D after S3 Trio 64U and I dumped it for NVIDIA TNT. My school has NVIDIA RIVA 128 and Premedia 2 OpenGL cards.


From https://www.techspot.com/article/2230-s3-graphics/
Firstly, developers had to use S3's own API to take advantage of the 3D acceleration, as they didn't offer any OpenGL support in their drivers initially. Proprietary APIs aren't necessarily worse than open-sourced ones, but once other manufacturers released their own 3D chips, with full compatibility with OpenGL, few developers bothered to make S3d modes for their games.

texture filtering was exceptionally slow, taking far too many clock cycles to sample and blend a bilinear texel.


Many PC gamers dumped S3 Virge 3D and S3 didn't recover from Virge's "decelerator" mess.

-----

2. In 1993 H2, Apple's Quadra 605 (with 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz) has a $1000 entry price.

From USA's Amiga World Magazine (November 1993), page 58 of 100,
Price listed in USD in November 1993

A1200/020, 2MB, price $379
A3000/030 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 105HD, price $899
A3000T/030 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1199
A3000T/040 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1599
A3000s are missing the AGA chipset.

From Amiga World Magazine (November 1993), page 70 of 100,
Amiga 4000/030 (68030/68882 @ 25 Mhz) = $1599. LOL, C= plans to fail.

Amiga 4000/040 (68040 @ 25 Mhz) = $2299. LOL, C= plans to fail. HAHAHAHAH ...

VS

PC Mag 28 Sep 1993, Page 419
From MS Engineering Inc.
Barebones 486SX-25 VLB (128KB L2 cache, 4MB RAM, 125 MB HDD, FDD, Keyboard) = $750

Add the following items
ET-4000W.32 VLB 1MB video RAM = $129
Pro Audio 16: $159
Total: $1,038



--------------------
PC Mag 26 Oct 1993, page 397

From AST Computers
Bravo LC with 123W bundle
486SX 25Mhz (120Mb HDD, 4 MB RAM, 1 MB video RAM) = $999


In PC Mag 26 Oct 1993, page 389
From AST Computers
Bravo LC with 123W bundle
486SX 25Mhz (120Mb HDD, 4 MB RAM, 1 MB video RAM) = $999


From NEC Ready Desktops
486SX25 (4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, FDD, Keyboard) = $999


From Leading Edge, WinPro 486 E
486SX25 (4MB RAM, 120 MB HDD, FDD, Keyboard, Windows Accelerator) = $970


From Compaq ProLinea Desktops
486SX25 (4MB RAM, 120 MB HDD, FDD, Keyboard, Mouse, VLB graphics) = $999


3. For 2021, it's $360 for TF1260 with 68LC060 CPU. Apollo-accelerator's Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V based) has $531.36 USD or 450€. Other Cyclone V boards are in $300 AUD or $219.65 USD range.

4. You argued for "ZhaDoomPPC was a unique feature". The gaming market has moved on towards Quake-era 3D engines by 1998. Your argument was a few years late by 1998!

5. Apollo-accelerator's Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V based) has $531.36 USD or 450€. Other Cyclone V boards are in the $219.65 USD range. Apollo-Acclerators.com is another (nearly) "Phase 5" gold plating.

6. Buffee was coined to slay Vampire.

7. Where's Linux 68K for Vampire V4? Again, MMU defined by Apollo-Accelerators (and Gunnar von Boehn) is NOT 68K since Apollo-Accelerators didn't follow Motorola's 68K series MMU. AMD's X86 MMU follows Intel's X86 MMU.

You're bull-shiting again like Gunnar von Boehn.

8. You stated, "Since this isn't relevant, I have a Core i5-4590T with a HD 4600. Its lower than the Intel Iris range that came after it". My GeForce 4 Ti example is about multiple price entry points.

9. Atari ST has major backward capability issues with CPU upgrades since its graphics functions are closely tied with the CPU. Good luck with upgrading Atari ST to match Amiga 500''s expandability record.

10. Apollo-Accelerators hit-the-metal SAGA (yet another post-AGA upgrade path) is no different from the post-VGA upgrade path wannabes.

11. As an example, S3 Trio 64U has 64-bit Bittler. Not every SVGA chipset has 64-bit Bittler. Different "SVGA" chipsets have different Doom/Quake benchmark results.

TIGA chipset-powered arcade machines like Midway's Mortal Kombat 2, not just professional DOS applications

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS34010
The TMS34010 was used in many coin-operated arcade games from 1989 through the mid-1990s.[3]

Atari Games

• Hard Drivin' (1989)[4]
• S.T.U.N. Runner (1989)
• Race Drivin' (1990)
• Steel Talons (1991)

Williams / Midway

• NARC (1988)
• Smash TV (1990)
• Trog (1990)
• Strike Force (1991)
• Super High Impact (1991)
• Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
• Total Carnage (1992)
• Mortal Kombat (1992)
• Mortal Kombat II (1993)
• NBA Jam (1993)
• Mortal Kombat 3 (1995)
• Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 (1995)
• WWF WrestleMania (1995)
• NHL: 2-on-2 Open Ice Challenge (1995)
• NBA Hangtime (1996)
• NBA Maximum Hangtime (1996)
• Rampage World Tour (1997)

The TMS34010 is a bit addressable, 32-bit processor, with two register files, each with fifteen registers and sharing a sixteenth stack pointer.[1] The instruction set supports drawing into two-dimensional bitmaps, arbitrary variable-width data, conversion of pixel data to different bit depths, and arithmetic operations on pixels. Positions in bitmaps can be specified either as X, Y coordinates or as addresses. The TMS34010 is capable of executing any general-purpose program and is supported by an ANSI compliant C compiler. Most of the arcade games that use the processor were written in native assembly language, not C.

-------
The need for TMS34010 (TIGA) has lessened with fast SVGA framebuffers and fast X86 CPUs e.g. PC DOS's Mortal Kombat 2 rivals TMS34010's Mortal Kombat 2 results. For the post-VGA upgrade path, Texas Instruments attempted to establish the TIGA standard and it failed. Microsoft's Windows 2D acceleration (e.g. DirectDraw) killed TMS34010's proprietary APIs. This narrative is against your SAGA argument.

MAME can emulate TMS34010 to run the arcade Mortal Kombat 2 version.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. In 1994, 68060 @ 50Mhz's cost wasn't steep relative to Intel's classic Pentium. Phase 5 boards "gold plated" the cheaper than Pentium CPU (a.k.a 68060 @ 50 Mhz) and S3 Trio 64U/S3 Virge 3D PC parts.

Again with the 1994 marking - It does not matter if the 060 cost wasn't steep in 1994 relative to a Pentium. Its 2021, its steep today, just like how Vampire is a steep price.

Also, S3 Virge 3D was competing against other GPU cards, not by itself.

Also, Chromatic had the MPACT processor which was programmable through microcode.

2. In 1993 H2, Apple's Quadra 605 (with 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz) has a $1000 entry price.

In 2002, The Orion DT-12 computer sold for $10.000, with 12 Transmeta Crusoe processors. It had a 200 watt power supply.

(You aren't answering to my comment that was under 2 so this is fine)

3. For 2021, it's $360 for TF1260 with 68LC060 CPU. Apollo-accelerator's Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V based) has $531.36 USD or 450€. Other Cyclone V boards are in $300 AUD or $219.65 USD range.

So they both carry steep prices. Its like i said this before.

4. You argued for "ZhaDoomPPC was a unique feature".

Incorrect. I said: some Amiga ports had some unique/advanced features - ZhaDoomPPC was able to do 800x600 on a PPC Amiga in 1998 - Not a small feat.

Quite a difference.

The gaming market has moved on towards Quake-era 3D engines by 1998. Your argument was a few years late by 1998!

No, but you reading comprehension definitely is stuck in 1998 if you thought (and you do) is what i said.

5. Apollo-accelerator's Ice Drake (Intel Cyclone V based) has $531.36 USD or 450€. Other Cyclone V boards are in the $219.65 USD range. Apollo-Acclerators.com is another (nearly) "Phase 5" gold plating.

Not a reference to my response.

6. Buffee was coined to slay Vampire.

Not a reference to my response.

7. Where's Linux 68K for Vampire V4?

Outside the scope because it does not purposefully target Linux.

Again, MMU defined by Apollo-Accelerators (and Gunnar von Boehn) is NOT 68K since Apollo-Accelerators didn't follow Motorola's 68K series MMU. AMD's X86 MMU follows Intel's X86 MMU.

Alright if its not compatible ill just return to my prior argument - It brute forces beyond 060 performance.

You're bull-shiting again like Gunnar von Boehn.

You say it! Meanwhile, the Amiga and Atari ST both have a 68K processor.

8. You stated, "Since this isn't relevant, I have a Core i5-4590T with a HD 4600. Its lower than the Intel Iris range that came after it". My GeForce 4 Ti example is about multiple price entry points.

My example says that ''this isn't relevant'', referring to my Core i5-4590T. I added it in for non-relevancy to demonstrate what you are doing and yet here you are taking it literally as if it carries an actual meaning in the discussion.*

* I have thrown in a few more of those in this response. See if you can spot them!

9. Atari ST has major backward capability issues with CPU upgrades since its graphics functions are closely tied with the CPU. Good luck with upgrading Atari ST to match Amiga 500''s expandability record.

I am talking about the SVGA cards, not Atari ST.

10. Apollo-Accelerators hit-the-metal SAGA (yet another post-AGA upgrade path) is no different from the post-VGA upgrade path wannabes.

The support isn't there yet, yes. That's about it.

11. As an example, S3 Trio 64U has 64-bit Bittler. Not every SVGA chipset has 64-bit Bittler. Different "SVGA" chipsets have different Doom/Quake benchmark results.

Obviously, but i did not answer to point 11 in my prior post. Thus, you made this answer up all by yourself

TIGA chipset-powered arcade machines like Midway's Mortal Kombat 2, not just professional DOS applications

You may want to elaborate here beyond the list you just mentioned.

Besides outside of arcade TIGA was only used in professional instances - On PC, there used to be a card called the Flippy, but TIGA never took off in the PC space when it came to games.

Pity. 3D accelerated rendering on PC could have had an early start.

 

[rnlval]

1. Again with the 1994 marking - It does not matter if the 060 cost wasn't steep in 1994 relative to a Pentium. Its 2021, its steep today, just like how Vampire is a steep price.

2. Also, Chromatic had the MPACT processor which was programmable through microcode.

3. In 2002, The Orion DT-12 computer sold for $10.000, with 12 Transmeta Crusoe processors. It had a 200 watt power supply.

(You aren't answering to my comment that was under 2 so this is fine)

So they both carry steep prices. Its like i said this before.

4. Incorrect. I said: some Amiga ports had some unique/advanced features - ZhaDoomPPC was able to do 800x600 on a PPC Amiga in 1998 - Not a small feat.

Quite a difference.

5. No, but you reading comprehension definitely is stuck in 1998 if you thought (and you do) is what i said.

6. Not a reference to my response.

7. Not a reference to my response.

8. Outside the scope because it does not purposefully target Linux.

9. Alright if its not compatible ill just return to my prior argument - It brute forces beyond 060 performance.

10. You say it! Meanwhile, the Amiga and Atari ST both have a 68K processor.

My example says that ''this isn't relevant'', referring to my Core i5-4590T. I added it in for non-relevancy to demonstrate what you are doing and yet here you are taking it literally as if it carries an actual meaning in the discussion.*

* I have thrown in a few more of those in this response. See if you can spot them!

I am talking about the SVGA cards, not Atari ST.

The support isn't there yet, yes. That's about it.

Obviously, but i did not answer to point 11 in my prior post. Thus, you made this answer up all by yourself

You may want to elaborate here beyond the list you just mentioned.

Besides outside of arcade TIGA was only used in professional instances - On PC, there used to be a card called the Flippy, but TIGA never took off in the PC space when it came to games.

Pity. 3D accelerated rendering on PC could have had an early start.

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.


2. As for your Chromatic MPACT argument, https://vintage3d.org/chromatic.php#sthash.MQkCbF9z.dpbs

Experience
Mpact2 surprised me with its compatibility, but for a multi-function DSP board I had low expectations to begin with. At first driver runs same bug was seen in few games, random lines and triangles "shooting" to the screen from top left corner. This is seen for example in Forsaken and TNP. Broken transparency in Expendable covers whole screen with gray color. HUD and sky in Hellbender are corrupted. Incoming shows heavy color dithering. Sky in Monster Truck Madness 1 is not rendered, leaving garbage on screen. Enabling texture filtering in Motoracer layed down disruptive black lines on the track. Second Motoracer was broken completely. Backgrounds of Resident Evil are covered in black. Big textures of Warbirds are not to be seen. Unreal is rendered as lines of random colors and somehow 3dMark things Mpact2 does not support textures. Interestingly enough, most of these big bugs do not appear in older driver and after combining results from two driver versions I could successfully complete almost all game tests. Recently I found even newer driver set, which finally fixed remaining compatibility problems. I am afraid Chromatic's driver policy made this achievement a well kept secret. Mip-mapping and/or memory management was a major source of problems until this last driver. MDK and Ultimate Race Pro have a similar problem with low resolution ground/track texture. Populous was refusing to run in resolution above 320x240. I tried to play with quality slider in the Mpact control panel and it helped with LOD only in Wing Commander Prophecy, lowering fps by some 10%:

Click on the image to see the difference after setting highest quality. Visit whole gallery.
The 8MB card avoided such problems except two games. Ground texture in Mechwarrior 2 switches to lowest mip level at first transition. Viper Racing suffers a lot, the LOD level is completely off, blurring track objects and fence into oblivion. Turning mip-mapping off makes Viper Racing look lot better. And then there is a wrapper for GlQuake and Quake 2, but it is a beta with issues. Games based on first Quake engine run quite slow, and sometime there are random lines and dots appearing. Quake 2 was up to expectations, Quake 3 worked only via d3d wrapper. Last driver brought updated version that speed up Quake 2 nicely, but broke compatibility with Quake 3 and Sin. What's more, it is not stable enough with 4MB card.

.....
Consumers accepted cost of special purpose 3d accelerators, CPU vendors boosted their multimedia performance by adding SIMD support, and other graphics vendors assisted DVD playback enough to compete with special purpose decoders. Chromatic Research was known for relatively large number of employees peaking around 350. Of note is the fact that it went through more than 5 rounds of funding. In July 1998 Chromatic announced end of Mpact 3 development and change of focus to a new vaguely described product. The company laid off half of the employees and was heading to bankruptcy. In October ATi decided to buy struggling Chromatic for $67 million and absorbed them by the end of the year. This meant premature end of driver support because ATi could not be bothered to offer any help. Around the same time heavyweights like Samsung and Phillips also gave up on their PC media processors. 3d acceleration was to be done by specialized hardware only.

------------------
Chromatic MPACT's VLIW architecture made the driver optimizations complex. Chromatic MPACT doesn't help the Amiga platform.

Note that both Xbox 360's and Xbox One's GPU also have a microcode engine.

Driver stability is important. Jen-Hsun Huang CEO of NVIDIA: "Nvidia is a Software Company".

Both AMD and NVIDIA dumped VLIW-based GPUs i.e. Terrascale/Northern Islands (Radeon HD 2900 to 6900) and GeForce FX respectively. NVIDIA dumped GeForce FX within one product release cycle.

The lesson that also applicable for the Amiga platform





3. Transmeta Crusoe Efficeon

VHJ: Benchmarking Transmeta's efficeon

Transmeta Efficeon's performance per chip area is inferior. AMD Athlon 64 3200+ for the win. PS; I bought AMD Athlon 64 3000+.

Transmeta Crusoe is a garbage CPU. Transmeta Crusoe doesn't help the Amiga platform.



4. For the year 1998... PC Master Race has GL Quake and Quake 2 OpenGL

http://www.tweak3d.net/reviews/nvidia/ultratnt2/2.shtml

GLQuake

NVIDIA TNT was released in June 1998.

NVIDIA vs. 3Dfx - TNT vs. the Voodoos - THG.RU - THG

The Wind of Change Times are changing in the graphics business. Prices of graphics cards are dropping and this might change a lot in the card makers business. We shouldn’t…

www.thg.ru

NVIDIA RIVA 128 was released in August 1997. Note gaming PC's Quake II OpenGL 1024x768 resolution with NVIDIA RIVA 128.


5. ZhaDoomPPC port was released in 1998 and the Doom game itself was from 1993. In the PC world, Doom/Doom II has been superseded by OpenGL Quake/Quake II. You're stuck in 1998 when you cited ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature.

Your cited ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature is a yawn.

6 and 7. It refers to my point 1 and it's against your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" statement. "Buffee" (the Vampire Slayer) effectively criticized Vampire's "gold plated" cost.

8. This is why Apollo's AC68080 is not "AMD" for 68K when it doesn't clone Motorola's 68K MMU functions and run the expected Linux 68K for the classic Amiga platform. AC68080 should be renamed into AC68EC080 LOL

From https://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/faq

• Do Vampires have an MMU?
  • MMU implementation is not currently planned for 68080 Core.

9. "It brute forces beyond 060 performance" was smacked down by WinUAE/Amiga Forever. I'll return to my prior argument, Apollo has "gold-plated" Cyclone V-based device with $535 USD tag when other Cyclone V-based devices has $220 USD range. Apollo-Accelerator.com is the next "Phase 5 gold-plating".

10. Commodore-Amiga Inc's
Amiga 2500 has 68020 with 68851 MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU) or 68030 with MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU).
Amiga 3000 has 68030 with MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU).
Amiga 3000T has 68030 or 68040 with MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU)
Amiga 4000 has 68040 with MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU)
Amiga Hombre has HP semi-custom PA-RISC 7150 has HP MMU compliant for Windows NT.

Amiga Technologies Gmbh (under Escom)'s
Amiga 4000T has 68040 or 68060 with MMU (Motorola's 68k MMU).

Power Computing Ltd (UK)
1997-1998 Amiga 1200 Magic Pack includes Phase 5 Blizzard/DCE Typhoon 68030 or Apollo's 68040 accelerators with Motorola's 68k MMU.

Power Computing

In August 1997, Power Computing Ltd. became one of the first manufacturers to sell accelerated A1200's at cheaper prices than Escom sold the basic A1200

Amiga Bundle One
Machine: Standard Amiga 1200 Magic pack.
Processor: Viper MKIV 68030 accelerator <--- from MTEC.
Memory: 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast RAM.
Drives: Floppy drive only
Price on release: £269.95

Amiga Bundle Two
Machine: Standard Amiga 1200 Magic pack.
Processor: Blizzard 68030 50MHz accelerator <----from Phase 5.
Memory: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast RAM.
Drives: 1.7Gb 3.5 IDE, 880k floppy drive
Price on release: £459.95

Amiga Bundle Three
Machine: Standard Amiga 1200 Magic pack.
Processor: Blizzard 68030 50MHz accelerator ----from Phase 5.
Memory: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast RAM.
Drives: 1.7Gb 3.5 IDE, 880k floppy drive, external 2X CD-ROM drive.
Other: Surf Squirrel, 33.6 modem & cable
Software: Internet software and a number of unknown CD titles.
Price on release: £689.95

At the beginning of 1998, Power Computing released a range of A1200 Tower systems.

A1200 Power Tower 2(Released March 1998)
Motherboard: Amiga 1200
Processor: Blizzard 1230 accelerator <----- Phase 5 "gold plating"
Memory: 2MB Chip, 16MB Fast RAM
Operating System: Workbench 3.1 & manuals
Drives: Amiga 880k DD floppy drive, 24x CD-ROM, 1.7Gb hard drive
Interfaces: 4 way IDE interface
Case design: Power Tower Unit
Additional software: Amiga Magic software bundle, IDEFix97 software
Price on release: £729.95

A1200 Power Tower 2 (Updated April 1998)
Motherboard: Amiga 1200
Processor: Apollo 1240 25MHz accelerator <---- from ACT Elektronik.
Memory: 2MB Chip, 16MB Fast RAM
Operating System: Workbench 3.1 & manuals
Drives: Amiga 880k DD floppy drive, 24x CD-ROM, 2.1GB hard drive
Interfaces: 4 way IDE interface
Case design: Power Tower Unit
Additional software: Amiga Magic software bundle, IDEFix97 software
Price on release: £759.95

A1200 Power Tower 2 (Updated November 1998)
Motherboard: Amiga 1200
Processor: Typhoon A1230 accelerator <---- From DCE.
Memory: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast RAM
Operating System: Workbench 3.1 & manuals
Drives: Amiga 880k DD floppy drive, 32x CD-ROM, 2.1GB hard drive
Interfaces: 4 way IDE interface, SCSI controller
Case design: Power Tower Unit
Additional software: Amiga Magic software bundle, IDEFix97 software
Price on release: £559.95

By the 1997-1998 time period, PC has away from 386DX(68030)-to-486DX (68040) CPU level performance. The above Amiga 1200 out-of-the-box package was 3 to 4 years late.
Besides 5V and 3.3V difference, 68040's CPU socket is the same as 68060's, hence Apollo 1240 card design can be upgraded into classic Pentium class 68060 or 68LC060.

Bankrupted Escom took out Amiga Technologies Gmbh.

Amiga Inc's licensed Hyperion's AmigaOS 4.x and AmigaOne (EyeTech or A-Eon)
AmigaOne PowerPC includes MMU capable of running LinuxPPC and AmigaOS 4.x's limited memory protection.

 

[rnlval]

Again with the 1994 marking - It does not matter if the 060 cost wasn't steep in 1994 relative to a Pentium. Its 2021, its steep today, just like how Vampire is a steep price.

Also, Chromatic had the MPACT processor which was programmable through microcode.

In 2002, The Orion DT-12 computer sold for $10.000, with 12 Transmeta Crusoe processors. It had a 200 watt power supply.

(You aren't answering to my comment that was under 2 so this is fine)

So they both carry steep prices. Its like i said this before.

Incorrect. I said: some Amiga ports had some unique/advanced features - ZhaDoomPPC was able to do 800x600 on a PPC Amiga in 1998 - Not a small feat.

Quite a difference.

No, but you reading comprehension definitely is stuck in 1998 if you thought (and you do) is what i said.

Not a reference to my response.

Not a reference to my response.

Outside the scope because it does not purposefully target Linux.

Alright if its not compatible ill just return to my prior argument - It brute forces beyond 060 performance.

You say it! Meanwhile, the Amiga and Atari ST both have a 68K processor.

My example says that ''this isn't relevant'', referring to my Core i5-4590T. I added it in for non-relevancy to demonstrate what you are doing and yet here you are taking it literally as if it carries an actual meaning in the discussion.*

* I have thrown in a few more of those in this response. See if you can spot them!

I am talking about the SVGA cards, not Atari ST.

The support isn't there yet, yes. That's about it.

Obviously, but i did not answer to point 11 in my prior post. Thus, you made this answer up all by yourself

You may want to elaborate here beyond the list you just mentioned.

Besides outside of arcade TIGA was only used in professional instances - On PC, there used to be a card called the Flippy, but TIGA never took off in the PC space when it came to games.

Pity. 3D accelerated rendering on PC could have had an early start.

Date: April 25, 2021
Recognizing the competition, Gunnar talks about the new Raptor accelerator card for Amiga 1200

Lower cost AC68080 with 128 MB Fast RAM only accelerator coming for A1200. Raptor's 128 MB Fast RAM indicates TF1260 target since it has 128 MB Fast RAM. Competition benefits the end-user.

To accelerate market acceptance,
AMD licensed AMD64 ISA to Intel, VIA and Transmeta.
AMD gave Mantle API to the Khronos Group which served as the basis for the Vulkan API.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, not the 68060 CPU.

I guess ill keep reiterating that judging by today's standards its still expensive, just like a Vampire. Being into Amiga is expensive in general.

2. As for your Chromatic MPACT argument, https://vintage3d.org/chromatic.php#sthash.MQkCbF9z.dpbs

This alone details that your reading comprehension is null. That was added for complete BS purposes and you took it as seriously as everything else.

Chromatic MPACT doesn't help the Amiga platform.

No shit sherlock.

3. Transmeta Crusoe Efficeon

Transmeta Crusoe is a garbage CPU. Transmeta Crusoe doesn't help the Amiga platform.

Stop taking things literal and you will understand i threw that in there for very obvious reasons.

4. For the year 1998... PC Master Race has GL Quake and Quake 2 OpenGL

No relevancy detected there if you read the context.

5. ZhaDoomPPC port was released in 1998 and the Doom game itself was from 1993. In the PC world, Doom/Doom II has been superseded by OpenGL Quake/Quake II.

I wasn't making a comparison. You are, for no reason at all.

You're stuck in 1998 when you cited ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature. Your cited ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature is a yawn.

No reading comprehension, right? It had some unique features, for an Amiga. Another feature among Doom Ports was flying.

This is basic reading comprehension but since you like to drag irrelevant things into the discussion, you aren't seeing that.

6 and 7. It refers to my point 1 and it's against your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" statement. "Buffee" (the Vampire Slayer) effectively criticized Vampire's "gold plated" cost.

Its not a reference to my response if its a reference to your multiple re-edited post citing yourself as a reference. You are quite literally, responding to yourself, with me as an intermediar.

8. This is why Apollo's AC68080 is not "AMD" for 68K when it doesn't clone Motorola's 68K MMU functions and run the expected Linux 68K for the classic Amiga platform.

68080 isn't for Linux but AmigaOS.

9. "It brute forces beyond 060 performance" was smacked down by WinUAE/Amiga Forever.

Not really. It still brute forces beyond 060 performance because as you state it does not use the exact Amiga MMU you deem so important.

Ofcourse, WinUAE also smacks 060 performance. But something that obvious couldn't be the point, could it?

I'll return to my prior argument, Apollo has "gold-plated" Cyclone V-based device with $535 USD tag when other Cyclone V-based devices has $220 USD range. Apollo-Accelerator.com is the next "Phase 5 gold-plating".

Still very expensive.

Date: April 25, 2021
Recognizing the competition, Gunnar talks about the new Raptor accelerator card for Amiga 1200

Lower cost AC68080 with 128 MB Fast RAM only accelerator coming for A1200. Raptor's 128 MB Fast RAM indicates TF1260 target since it has 128 MB Fast RAM. Competition benefits the end-user.

To accelerate market acceptance,
AMD licensed AMD64 ISA to Intel, VIA and Transmeta.
AMD gave Mantle API to the Khronos Group which served as the basis for the Vulkan API.

Still uses the 080. Does it have your seal of approval?

 

[rnlval]

1. I guess ill keep reiterating that judging by today's standards its still expensive, just like a Vampire. Being into Amiga is expensive in general.


2. This alone details that your reading comprehension is null. That was added for complete BS purposes and you took it as seriously as everything else.

3. No shit sherlock.

4. Stop taking things literal and you will understand i threw that in there for very obvious reasons.

5. No relevancy detected there if you read the context.


6. I wasn't making a comparison. You are, for no reason at all.

7. No reading comprehension, right? It had some unique features, for an Amiga. Another feature among Doom Ports was flying.

8. This is basic reading comprehension but since you like to drag irrelevant things into the discussion, you aren't seeing that.


9. Its not a reference to my response if its a reference to your multiple re-edited post citing yourself as a reference. You are quite literally, responding to yourself, with me as an intermediar.

10. 68080 isn't for Linux but AmigaOS.


Not really. It still brute forces beyond 060 performance because as you state it does not use the exact Amiga MMU you deem so important.

Ofcourse, WinUAE also smacks 060 performance. But something that obvious couldn't be the point, could it?

Still very expensive.


Still uses the 080. Does it have your seal of approval?

1. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, NOT Motorola's 68060 CPU.

It should have been "Amiga's high-performance CPU accelerator cards have been overpriced for years". Your blame on the 68060 is misplaced. Doom doesn't need the FPU hence lower cost 68LC040 or 68LC060 would do the job.

68LC040 is equivalent to 486SX.

2. You inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, it's your reading comprehension that is NULL.

3. You inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, it's your shit.

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Your attempts to invoke envy for ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature narrative are NULL i.e. pointless. Furthermore, ZhaDoomPPC needs Haage & Partner's WarpOS kernel and PowerPC CPU, hence it's useless (NULL) for classic 68K Amigas. Haage & Partner's WarpOS's initially runs with Phase 5's PowerPC add-on products.

9. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, NOT Motorola's 68060 CPU.

It should have been "Amiga's high-performance CPU accelerator cards have been overpriced for years". Your blame on the 68060 is misplaced. Doom doesn't need the FPU hence lower cost 68LC040 or 68LC060 would do the job.

10. AC68080 doesn't completely encapsulate what Commodore-Amiga Inc's real Amiga hardware with Motorola's real 68020+68851, 68030, and 68040 CPU can do. AC68080 should be renamed into AC68EC080. LOL

AC68EC080 is just a very fast 68EC020/68EC040/68EC060 clone with reduced precision FPU.

Note that the 32-bit X86 instruction set did NOT separate its MMU instructions and 32bit X86 clone vendors did NOT reduce FPU precision relative to the expected X87, SSE/SSE2, and AVX/AVX2/AVX-512, hence the so-called AC68080 failed to be the "AMD" for 68K CPU family. Every i386 compatible CPU did NOT remove X86 MMU.

 

[Redneckerz]

1. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, NOT Motorola's 68060 CPU.

I guess ill keep reiterating that judging by today's standards its still expensive, just like a Vampire. Being into Amiga is expensive in general.

It should have been "Amiga's high-performance CPU accelerator cards have been overpriced for years". Your blame on the 68060 is misplaced. Doom doesn't need the FPU hence lower cost 68LC040 or 68LC060 would do the job.

Being into Amiga in general is expensive.

2. You inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, it's your reading comprehension that is NULL.

It wasn't an argument. It was a ridiculed assertion placed to demonstrate if you could understand how something completely unrelated to the discussion at hand is divisive.

You ended up taking it seriously. Should i have been more obvious, like mention a Volkswagen Beetle instead? I figured using the MPACT video card as an example was ridiculous by itself, but here we are... you took that seriously.

But yes, its my reading comprehension that is null. Clearly it is null because it should have been taken seriously. Clearly.

3. You inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, it's your shit.

And you picked up on it brilliantly. Yet you are still failing to understand that inserting randomness into a discussion does not strengthen an argument.*

* This is exactly what you are doing. So i figured i would return the favor and see if you could discern the actual content from bollocks. You didn't, because you addressed it in a serious manner. This is why i am saying your reading comprehension is bunk, because you are proving the point.

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Your attempts to invoke envy for ZhaDoomPPC's "unique" feature narrative are NULL i.e. pointless.

Not really, but you aren't understanding what the feature is. You are reading past it and then say its not unique, ignoring the context in which it is written. Thus the ability to understand is nullified.

Furthermore, ZhaDoomPPC needs Haage & Partner's WarpOS kernel and PowerPC CPU, hence it's useless (NULL) for classic 68K Amigas.

Ah, finally some coherency! That's right, its a PowerPC application. Not that it makes a dent to my original comment, but i am glad we have established here that its not a 68K program.

9. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years" when "Design In Germany" Phase 5's "gold plated" board is the expensive component, NOT Motorola's 68060 CPU.

Ofcourse.

10. AC68080 doesn't completely encapsulate what Commodore-Amiga Inc's real Amiga hardware with Motorola's real 68020+68851, 68030, and 68040 CPU can do.

I suppose it does not have to.

AC68080 should be renamed into AC68EC080. LOL

Go right ahead and call it that way. I am sure the community will consider it.

AC68EC080 is just a very fast 68EC020/68EC040/68EC060 clone with reduced precision FPU.

Plenty enough for fast Amiga computing.

Note that the 32-bit X86 instruction set did NOT separate its MMU instructions and 32bit X86 clone vendors did NOT reduce FPU precision relative to the expected X87, SSE/SSE2, and AVX/AVX2/AVX-512, hence the so-called AC68080 failed to be the "AMD" for 68K CPU family.

How does it fail when its not its intent? Maybe its the Winchip for 68k CPU family.

Every i386 compatible CPU did NOT remove X86 MMU.

Space Invaders ran on a x86 processor.

 

[rnlval]

1. I guess ill keep reiterating that judging by today's standards its still expensive, just like a Vampire. Being into Amiga is expensive in general.

2. Being into Amiga in general is expensive.

3. It wasn't an argument. It was a ridiculed assertion placed to demonstrate if you could understand how something completely unrelated to the discussion at hand is divisive.

You ended up taking it seriously. Should i have been more obvious, like mention a Volkswagen Beetle instead? I figured using the MPACT video card as an example was ridiculous by itself, but here we are... you took that seriously.

But yes, its my reading comprehension that is null. Clearly it is null because it should have been taken seriously. Clearly.

And you picked up on it brilliantly. Yet you are still failing to understand that inserting randomness into a discussion does not strengthen an argument.*

* This is exactly what you are doing. So i figured i would return the favor and see if you could discern the actual content from bollocks. You didn't, because you addressed it in a serious manner. This is why i am saying your reading comprehension is bunk, because you are proving the point.

4. Not really, but you aren't understanding what the feature is. You are reading past it and then say its not unique, ignoring the context in which it is written. Thus the ability to understand is nullified.

5. Ah, finally some coherency! That's right, its a PowerPC application. Not that it makes a dent to my original comment, but i am glad we have established here that its not a 68K program.

Ofcourse.

I suppose it does not have to.


6. Go right ahead and call it that way. I am sure the community will consider it.

7. Plenty enough for fast Amiga computing.

8. How does it fail when its not its intent? Maybe its the Winchip for 68k CPU family.

9. Space Invaders ran on a x86 processor.

1. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years".

In 1994, 68060 wasn't overpriced relative to classic Pentium. The expensive "gold plated" part is from the likes of "Phase 5".

2. What is the price for RTX 3090 that outnumbered the entire AMD PC RDNA 2 SKUs install base in the recent Steam survey?

3. Again, it was you who inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, hence it's your reading comprehension that is NULL.

4. You assumed I'm not aware of ZhaDoomPPC when I run WinUAE 4.9 beta with emulated Cyberstorm PPC and Voodoo 3000 PCI (via G-REX PCI bus board).

5. Your attempts to induce envy with ZhaDoomPPC's "unique feature" are useless. Refer to my PC Quake OpenGL benchmarks.

6. My 68EC080 label on 68080 is not original when I saw debates against the 68080 in the Amiga-related forums.

7. Vampire V2's reduced precision FPU fu_k-up Fusion (MacOS 68K virtual machine software for the Amiga). The workaround is to disable Vampire's FPU, hence trigging MacOS's slower softFPU path or use Shapeshifter. Vampire's FPU is just a toy.

8. IDT WinChip 2's X86 MMU and X87 FPU data format handling are compliant with X86 (Pentium) standards.

9. You missed my point on properly cloning the intended CPU family.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

This thread is crazy.
what it needs is more point-form arguing, because man, it really makes the Amiga community seem fun!

 

[Fredrik]

Agony on the Amiga 1200 with Indivision AGA DVI mod, the game is average but it’s still such a looker

 

[Redneckerz]

1. Again, I was addressing your "a 060 has been overpriced for years".

In 1994, 68060 wasn't overpriced relative to classic Pentium. The expensive "gold plated" part is from the likes of "Phase 5".

You have told that a few times now.

2. What is the price for RTX 3090 that outnumbered the entire AMD PC RDNA 2 SKUs install base in the recent Steam survey?

At the moment, Dutch prices vary between 2200 and 2800 euros on average.

3. Again, it was you who inserted the Chromatic MPACT argument, hence it's your reading comprehension that is NULL.

I added that in deliberately. You don't understand what reading comprehension means, otherwise you wouldn't be telling me that it is null.

4. You assumed I'm not aware of ZhaDoomPPC when I run WinUAE 4.9 beta with emulated Cyberstorm PPC and Voodoo 3000 PCI (via G-REX PCI bus board).

That's correct, i assumed that.

5. Your attempts to induce envy with ZhaDoomPPC's "unique feature" are useless. Refer to my PC Quake OpenGL benchmarks.

You do not understand what the unique feature of that port was at the time.

6. My 68EC080 label on 68080 is not original when I saw debates against the 68080 in the Amiga-related forums.

I am not interested.

7. Vampire V2's reduced precision FPU fu_k-up Fusion (MacOS 68K virtual machine software for the Amiga). The workaround is to disable Vampire's FPU, hence trigging MacOS's slower softFPU path or use Shapeshifter. Vampire's FPU is just a toy.

Very well.

8. IDT WinChip 2's X86 MMU and X87 FPU data format handling are compliant with X86 (Pentium) standards.

Ah, you took that seriously. Maybe its the Rise Mp6 for 68k.

9. You missed my point on properly cloning the intended CPU family.

You don't have a point.

This thread is crazy.
what it needs is more point-form arguing, because man, it really makes the Amiga community seem fun!

Since you haven't contributed to this thread besides this very post, what is your affilation with Amiga?

Returning to the topic at hand since discussing rnival is not mandatory:

Blood for Classic Amiga has been released on AmiNet. 060 with FPU, 32 MB FAST, AGA or RTG, 70 MB HDD required.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Since you haven't contributed to this thread besides this very post, what is your affilation with Amiga?

LOL. "what is your affiliation with Amiga" Didn't realize you were the Gatekeeper of Amiga.

Since you asked, I'll humour you: I grew up with an Amiga 500, learned to code on it after learning BASIC on my C64, played countless games over the years, and it will always hold a special place in my heart.

 

[Redneckerz]

LOL. "what is your affiliation with Amiga" Didn't realize you were the Gatekeeper of Amiga.

It was a geniune question since you didn't like the course of the thread, but i guess you took that completely wrongly.

Since you asked, I'll humour you: I grew up with an Amiga 500, learned to code on it after learning BASIC on my C64, played countless games over the years, and it will always hold a special place in my heart.

So what do you think of the new developments in the Amiga world?

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

It was a geniune question since you didn't like the course of the thread, but i guess you took that completely wrongly.


So what do you think of the new developments in the Amiga world?

It's not something I genuinely pay attention to, I'm just generally a fan/will always be a fan of Amiga and it's legacy. I guess new developments in Amiga hobbyist world vs. the Amiga legacy, if you will, is the split.

 

[DrCheese]

Aruging point for point is just... stupid. Go find a discord as it makes this thread unreadable when it's just two guys quote posting every single line.

 

[Fredrik]

Aruging point for point is just... stupid. Go find a discord as it makes this thread unreadable when it's just two guys quote posting every single line.

Gets the thread frequently bumped though Hopefully some who see the thread jump up on the front page read the OP. The Pimiga on a Pi400 gives you a solid enough Amiga experience that anyone interested in the Amiga should try it. A real Amiga is still better but I’m not sure I would advice anyone with no previous experience to start hunting an old Amiga and accelerators in 2021, it can be incredibly janky, you have to have the nostalgia goggles on at all times to really enjoy it. And the A500 Mini miss the target by not having a working keyboard and including a controller instead of a joystick. Still an important product to get some Amiga hype going but it’s not for me in it’s current state.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Gets the thread frequently bumped though Hopefully some who see the thread jump up on the front page read the OP. The Pimiga on a Pi400 gives you a solid enough Amiga experience that anyone interested in the Amiga should try it. A real Amiga is still better but I’m not sure I would advice anyone with no previous experience to start hunting an old Amiga and accelerators in 2021, it can be incredibly janky, you have to have the nostalgia goggles on at all times to really enjoy it. And the A500 Mini miss the target by not having a working keyboard and including a controller instead of a joystick. Still an important product to get some Amiga hype going but it’s not for me in it’s current state.

So, maybe a dumb question, but why pimiga vs emulation on PC?

 

[Fredrik]

So, maybe a dumb question, but why pimiga vs emulation on PC?

I just think it’s cooler with a dedicated device that I can plug in wherever I want that boot up in Workbench. When it comes to functionality a PC actually work better, I’ve experienced some minor issues on the Pi.

 

[Patrick S.]

This thread is hostile nerds arguing back and forth. Not my cup of tea, really. Wish the community was more friendly.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

The Amiga mini thread is quiet and peaceful. But I do agree that’s been going on far too long that quote-a-thon.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

This thread is hostile nerds arguing back and forth. Not my cup of tea, really. Wish the community was more friendly.

Yeah I came in here ready for some wonderful Amiga love, and it's this weird place with people posting gigantic, page-long, point-form argument responses about technical minutia.
Tip, guys: find a room if it gets to that, okay? Because this is not appearing like a friendly, fun, Amiga-loving zone.
Admission: I loved Origin Systems so much and only owned an Amiga still at the point where their VGA titles were coming out, and I actually finished Ultima VI and Wing Commander on the A500, despite the horrendous performance.
Amiga Ultima VI music > PC.

 

[rnlval]

You have told that a few times now.

At the moment, Dutch prices vary between 2200 and 2800 euros on average.

1. I added that in deliberately. You don't understand what reading comprehension means, otherwise you wouldn't be telling me that it is null.

That's correct, i assumed that.

2. You do not understand what the unique feature of that port was at the time.

I am not interested.

Very well.

Ah, you took that seriously. Maybe its the Rise Mp6 for 68k.

You don't have a point.

Since you haven't contributed to this thread besides this very post, what is your affilation with Amiga?

Returning to the topic at hand since discussing rnival is not mandatory:

Blood for Classic Amiga has been released on AmiNet. 060 with FPU, 32 MB FAST, AGA or RTG, 70 MB HDD required.

1. You deliberately added crap that is irreverent to this topic's general subject on why the Commodore-Amiga platform couldn't compete against 1993 era 486SX 25 based PC (Doom era ) to 1st generation Pentium (Quake era).

Don't assume that I didn't notice your crap arguments. You keep assuming too much about me NOT about the topic at hand i.e. Amiga vs PC.

For the Doom era, Apple Quadra 605 shows 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz can price compete against 486SX @ 25 based PC clones in H2 1993 which Commodore failed to execute.

68040 shares the same socket as 68060, and Commodore didn't design a low-cost optimized single-board 68LC040/68040/68060 with cost low and compact AGA i.e. CD32 design.

The fault is with Commodore and post-Commodore wannabes NOT with Motorola.

2. It's a red herring argument that amounts to nothing for the Amiga platform i.e. >>> "Phase 5" <<< PPC for Amiga didn't deliver Amiga 500/1200 replacement. The entire PowerPC adventure for Amiga is a fking waste of time.

Hyperion's recent revenues are dominated by Amiga 68K related sales (i.e. AmigaOS 3.1.4 and AmigaOS 3.2), NOT with PowerPC. Cloanto (current Amiga Inc) exists based on Amiga 68K retro market, NOT with PowerPC.

Your ZhaDoomPPC argument is mostly a pointless argument for the Amiga platform and it's a "so what/ who cares / we got Quake-Quake II OpenGL" from the gaming PC market.

 

[rnlval]

Aruging point for point is just... stupid. Go find a discord as it makes this thread unreadable when it's just two guys quote posting every single line.

The fool turned this topic about me and assumes a lot about me. Redneckerz assumes I didn't know the Amiga platform when I'm hammer in both AW.net and EAB forums. I own an Amiga 3000 in 1992, LOL.

It can be expensive for him, but not expensive for myself, my dad, and many others who bought 486 based gaming PCs during the Doom era and classic Pentium-based gaming PCs during the Quake era.

 

[Redneckerz]

Aruging point for point is just... stupid. Go find a discord as it makes this thread unreadable when it's just two guys quote posting every single line.

What remains impressive is how the platform keeps getting new games that ooze quality, and even an update to the classic AmigaOS.

Commodore in general gets a ton of post release support.

This thread is hostile nerds arguing back and forth. Not my cup of tea, really. Wish the community was more friendly.

It generally is, i was just keeping it up to see if the quarter fell. It didn't, so here we are.