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[Krejlooc]

No one ever mentions Mini. It's the only Panzer Dragoon I haven't played and have always been curious.

Is it not worth a play?

That's because it's hyper rare (rarer than Panzer Dragoon Saga) and goes for a fortune (I've seen it sell well above PDS's usual asking price when sold mint) and, unlike PDS, it's not worth playing.

Crap game, only for collectors. I own everything Panzer Dragoon related, including the white Xbox bundle from japan, the ultra rare Panzer Dragoon NV1 disc (never sold in stores), the updated windows 95 longbox copy of Panzer Dragoon, and Panzer Dragoon Mini.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I paid a paltry price for Panzer Dragoon Saga myself so all my praise for the game is also not related to its monetary value, FWIW.

 

[Coda]

I think Orta for the original Xbox is my favorite. I just started playing it not too long ago. I think it's a beautifully designed game and the graphics hold up really well to this day.

 

[Synth]

Regardless of where you choose to start, make sure you play Zwei. Nothing in the genre has ever come close to touching its greatness. The last boss' theme is also my favourite vgm track of all time.

Decades ago, I saw Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining Force III, and Magic Knight Rayearth all at Electronics Boutique and only had enough money for two. I picked up Shining Force III (amazing game) and chose MKR over PDS because I knew MKR was the last saturn game and I figured it would eventually be rarer and more sought after.

Well, I hated MKR, and refused to pay crazy prices for Saga after passing it up. Years and years fly by, and one day I'm at a garage sale and see a woman selling a bunch of very rare saturn games for dirt cheap in a box. She clearly had no idea what she was selling. There was no panzer dragoon saga, but there were copies of Burning Rangers, Shining Force III, Sega Ages, etc. all in mint condition, which I bought for a paltry sum (like under $50). I already owned all those games already, but I managed to turn those games into a straight up trade for a sealed copy of PDS on a gaming forum.

This was only like 3 or 4 years ago. All my praise for Panzer Dragoon Saga is not nostalgia, nor is it because I payed out the ass for it. It's legitimately a terrific game. I wish I could play it again with new eyes. One of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. To lust after a game for over a decade, and then to get it and have it live up to the hype is something else.

Enjoy your playthrough of the game. It's a master piece as far as I'm concerned. Possibly Sega's greatest hour.

Man... you're gonna end up making me buy it...

I had a similar story to yours, but mine was far more tragic. I was with my younger brothers in CeX one day and my mother decides that she's willing to buy us all one game. They had Saga there for £20... TWENTY FUCKING POUNDS... and the youngest of my brothers starts demanding we get Virtua Fighter Kids (we already had VF2 ffs!). Nothing I said could sway the conversation at that point, and to this day I've never played anything past the first disc of Saga (which was given away with the Official Saturn Magazine). Nearly two decades later, I still haven't forgiven him, and won't unless he buys me a copy. Twat.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think Orta for the original Xbox is my favorite. I just started playing it not too long ago. I think it's a beautifully designed game and the graphics hold up really well to this day.

I just don't feel like the enemy encounter rate or bullet fire patterns in Orta are up to the rest of the series. I give it the nod over Panzer Dragoon 1 because that game is really straight forward (no branching paths, etc) but while Orta introduces the speed mechanics, which plays into your ability to dodge enemy attacks and gives some cool boss patterns, everything else felt like a step back from Zwei.

Zwei has some insane enemy patterns, the way it keeps you twisting and turning as you progress through the levels, and the route system felt more like an evolution of Outrun than it did in Orta. The bullet patterns in Zwei recall the great moments from Space Harrier or Galaxy Force II. Orta feels a lot more like Star Fox to me.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, I love all rail shooters, including star fox and orta, but Zwei is just something else for me.

 

[Jonneh3003]

Saga is my favourite game of all time and my most prized possesion. The first game is a good place to start, I think the quality gradually declines with each release but they're all fantastic games. Actually Zwei is great too.

 

[Krejlooc]

Man... you're gonna end up making me buy it...

I had a similar story to yours, but mine was far more tragic. I was with my younger brothers in CeX one day and my mother decides that she's willing to buy us all one game. They had Saga there for £20... TWENTY FUCKING POUNDS... and the youngest of my brothers starts demanding we get Virtua Fighter Kids (we already had VF2 ffs!). Nothing I said could sway the conversation at that point, and to this day I've never played anything past the first disc of Saga (which was given away with the Official Saturn Magazine). Nearly two decades later, I still haven't forgiven him, and won't unless he buys me a copy. Twat.

Ha, speaking of VF kids, I got my sega saturn a day after the surprise launch and wanted to pick up Virtua Fighter 2 or VF Kids with it, but neither were out yet (despite releasing just a few weeks later). Instead, I went home with Bug!, Virtua Fighter (packed in), and, upon the recommendation of the store owner, Panzer Dragoon. I had never even heard of the game. He recommended it over Daytona USA, said more people had bought Daytona USA but Panzer Dragoon was a better game.

Holy fucking shit he was so right. Panzer Dragoon is what made my Sega Saturn purchase worth it. I hated Bug!, and VF1 was a terrible port. If I would have come home with that crap port of Daytona, I probably would have been crushed. Panzer Dragoon saved my Sega Saturn for me.

I still think back about how funny it was that I was more stoked for VF Kids than Panzer Dragoon, haha. Of course, I would have been perfectly fine with VF2, but imagine choosing VF Kids over Panzer Dragoon haha.

 

[Shion]

Zwei is the best shooter in the series and Saga is one of the best JRPGs ever created. Orta is great as well.

I would encourage you to play through the entire series, as all the games are great and the lore is amazing.

It's a real shame that SEGA didn't do more with the Panzer Dragoon universe.

 

[Krejlooc]

Zwei is the best shooter in the series and Saga is one of the best JRPGs ever created. Orta is great as well.

I would encourage you to play through the entire series, as all the games are great and the lore is amazing.

It's a real shame that SEGA didn't do more with the Panzer Dragoon universe.

The Panzer Dragoon world in Sonic All-stars racing transformed is so good. While my favorite level is the after burner one (that fucking remix of The Final Takeoff), the Panzer Dragoon Level is my second favorite.

Unfortunately, it felt like the PD world in transformed took more cues from Orta than PD1,2,Saga. The world in Orta feels more... organic? Alive? Which I guess makes sense given the ending to Saga, but I loved the vast barren sun-scorched landscapes of the original trilogy. They seemed so haunting.

 

[luka]

when it comes to azel/saga, knowing japanese definitely helps. you can get the game for about ¥4000, spine card and everything.

 

[HueyFreeman]

1, Zwei and Orta are among my favorite games ever - I bought the OG Xbox ostensibly for my brother, but came home simultaneously with a copy of Orta, which in retrospect is horribly transparent.

Everybody heralds Fumito Ueda with being a new landmark in world-building, but his art style, and even language, are heavily informed by Team Andromeda's creations. It is one of the reasons I love Team Ico's work so much.

It's a real point of sadness in my life that I've never played Saga - it was never available locally for me at all at the time in Canada in any of the stores I had access to - and I'm just not willing to plop down 400 bucks on a Saturn game. I truly hope Sega can come to their senses and give us a NiGHTs like re-release, brushed up but otherwise generally unaltered. A full blown re-make would be welcome to, but I know better than to hope for that from modern Sega.

 

[Krejlooc]

1, Zwei and Orta are among my favorite games ever - I bought the OG Xbox ostensibly for my brother, but came home simultaneously with a copy of Orta, which in retrospect is horribly transparent.

Everybody heralds Fumito Ueda with being a new landmark in world-building, but his art style, and even language, are heavily informed by Team Andromeda's creations. It is one of the reasons I love Team Ico's work so much.

It's a real point of sadness in my life that I've never played Saga - it was never available locally for me at all at the time in Canada in any of the stores I had access to - and I'm just not willing to plop down 400 bucks on a Saturn game. I truly hope Sega can come to their senses and give us a NiGHTs like re-release, brushed up but otherwise generally unaltered. A full blown re-make would be welcome to, but I know better than to hope for that from modern Sega.

Well, Fumito Ueda takes inspiration from Moebius, who created the art that Panzer Dragoon was based on. Fumito Ueda is awesome, he's like a cross between the crazy gameplay experimentation of Kenji Eno and the aesthetics and world building of Moebius. Actually, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are the two games I'd compare Panzer Dragoon with the most in terms of style. They both have that simple style story that manages to say way more with less.

Panzer Dragoon is the defining Sega Saturn series, by far. People usually hold up NiGHTS or Virtua Fighter as the tent pole series of the Saturn, but to me, Panzer Dragoon is to the Saturn what Final Fantasy was to Sony and Zelda was to Nintendo. It's the reason you get a saturn these days.

 

[AniHawk]

i started with orta and can easily make that recommendation to anyone. great rails shooter.

the only other one i played was saga (i first played it earlier this year). orta and saga connect to each other more strongly than others in the series do (saga tries to explain more about 1 and zwei).

you have to be sort of committed to saying goodbye to that $300-$400 just to play saga. i'm actually not sure the investment is worth it. i don't think any game is really that worth it. the game is pretty great though, and deserving of a lot of its praise. it's interesting how sega was navigating 3d space with their weird controller in 1998. really strong art direction and a great soundtrack help set the mood, and the battle system stands the test of time. holy shit it's actually fun to play in 2015.

 

[AniHawk]

Well it happened. It's been years and many dreams since this day. I finally found a copy at a good price and I took the plunge. Some may not know how badly I have wanted a copy of this game and some may not feel my joy over this, but this is a landmark or a milestone for myself and those I've ever enjoyed RPG video games with.

There may not be another moment like this, so I thought I'd share it. This just happened a few minutes ago.

you're in for a treat. at least i think so. one of the things i debated with myself was whether or not i liked it because of its exclusivity, but after a few months of the dust settling, i look back on it as a truly memorable game of that period. aside from the on-foot stuff (which isn't much of the game), it's pretty fast-paced in a way rpgs weren't back then. almost every character is voiced too, which was surprising considering it was 1998 and that wasn't a guarantee.

 

[Krejlooc]

i started with orta and can easily make that recommendation to anyone. great rails shooter.

the only other one i played was saga (i first played it earlier this year). orta and saga connect to each other more strongly than others in the series do (saga tries to explain more about 1 and zwei).

you have to be sort of committed to saying goodbye to that $300-$400 just to play saga. i'm actually not sure the investment is worth it. i don't think any game is really that worth it. the game is pretty great though, and deserving of a lot of its praise. it's interesting how sega was navigating 3d space with their weird controller in 1998. really strong art direction and a great soundtrack help set the mood, and the battle system stands the test of time. holy shit it's actually fun to play in 2015.

the best thing about the battle system is how they manage to keep throwing new little twists at you right up to the end of the game. It's very a much an RPG battle system that involves skill - someone can actually be better at playing Panzer Dragoon Saga than someone else. That the game itself grades each battle is motivation for figuring out how to geat an "excellent" rating for every possible battle combination. Little things like mixing enemy types that are immune to your blaster or dragon keeps you on your toes.

My main gripes are that the magic is largely useless (basically, use the most powerful magic you have) a that the game gets really easy if you morph your dragon in a certain way (there's a way to make your dragon automatically regain health if you keep all 3 ATB bars full).

Oh, and that it only has one side quest (although it spans the length of the entire game). I wish there was more to do. Usually I complain about the length of a game being too long, but Panzer Dragoon Saga is one of those rare games that left me wanting more.

 

[Synth]

Ha, speaking of VF kids, I got my sega saturn a day after the surprise launch and wanted to pick up Virtua Fighter 2 or VF Kids with it, but neither were out yet (despite releasing just a few weeks later). Instead, I went home with Bug!, Virtua Fighter (packed in), and, upon the recommendation of the store owner, Panzer Dragoon. I had never even heard of the game. He recommended it over Daytona USA, said more people had bought Daytona USA but Panzer Dragoon was a better game.

Holy fucking shit he was so right. Panzer Dragoon is what made my Sega Saturn purchase worth it. I hated Bug!, and VF1 was a terrible port. If I would have come home with that crap port of Daytona, I probably would have been crushed. Panzer Dragoon saved my Sega Saturn for me.

I still think back about how funny it was that I was more stoked for VF Kids than Panzer Dragoon, haha. Of course, I would have been perfectly fine with VF2, but imagine choosing VF Kids over Panzer Dragoon haha.

Haha, yea... imagine that... *eye twitches*

He (predictably) didn't even want to play the damn game after the first day of macro'ing the SPoD to a single button, lol. The game's only saving grace was that some of the endings were fucking hilarious (especially Kage's, which never fails to bring a smile to my face even today).

 

[Krejlooc]

Haha, yea... imagine that... *eye twitches*

He (predictably) didn't even want to play the damn game after the first day of macro'ing the SPoD to a single button, lol. The game's only saving grace was that some of the endings were fucking hilarious (especially Kage's, which never fails to bring a smile to my face even today).

it just became obsolete as the saturn went on. VF Kids isn't bad, but it's definitely not in the top 5 3D fighting games for the saturn (Fighter's Megamix, VF2, Dead or Alive, Anarchy in the Nippon, and Fighting Vipers respectively IMO).

I would still like a speeded up version of VF 2, but without the enlarged VF Kids hitboxes.

Dural's head being fishbowl makes me laugh, though.

 

[HueyFreeman]

Well, Fumito Ueda takes inspiration from Moebius, who created the art that Panzer Dragoon was based on. Fumito Ueda is awesome, he's like a cross between the crazy gameplay experimentation of Kenji Eno and the aesthetics and world building of Moebius. Actually, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are the two games I'd compare Panzer Dragoon with the most in terms of style. They both have that simple style story that manages to say way more with less.

Panzer Dragoon is the defining Sega Saturn series, by far. People usually hold up NiGHTS or Virtua Fighter as the tent pole series of the Saturn, but to me, Panzer Dragoon is to the Saturn what Final Fantasy was to Sony and Zelda was to Nintendo. It's the reason you get a saturn these days.

Couldn't agree more - which is what makes it so painful that it sits, in all its glory, neglected in the history bin to all except the most ardent of seekers. The shit ain't right.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Panzer Dragoon Saga is a fun game, but I really don't think it's worth the investment unless you're a collector. And saying "Just sell it when you're done" is a level of risk that I don't feel comfortable in recommending. World/story/characters are great, graphics are a real mixed bag (combat's the best, town is shocking in how ugly it is, and FMV is the usual laughable fare of the era) and haven't aged well, and the combat though original, doesn't have enough depth to stay interesting through the game's relatively short length of around 15 hours. It's a game desperately in need of a remake.

As far as the shooters go, Zwei & Orta are both good. The original was very cool at the time but rendered obsolete by the sequels IMO (and what little story it has can easily be read up on a game wiki page).

All the games have amazing soundtracks.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

These games are the reason I got a Saturn a couple of years ago and why I still hold on to it.

I played the OG game back on my PC in the late 90s/early 2000s when I got my first PC (which I played on my PC as well as the PC port of Virtua Cop 2 and Typing of the Dead) and have been a mega fan ever since. Orta was the next game I played around half a decade later and fell in love all over again. Was blown away by all of the extra content in Orta, including those extra game modes playing as the kid and PD1 being unlockable.

Then Zwei came after I got the Saturn and once again, the feels just came back again. It's basically Moebius: The Video Game Series, it's really just pure bliss. Such an organic and beautiful series (not always graphically, but beautiful through its feelings). Outside of Shinobi and Shenmue, this is my favourite SEGA series ever.

 

[Krejlooc]

These games are the reason I got a Saturn a couple of years ago and why I still hold on to it.

I played the OG game back on my PC in the late 90s/early 2000s when I got my first PC (which I played on my PC as well as the PC port of Virtua Cop 2 and Typing of the Dead) and have been a mega fan ever since. Orta was the next game I played around half a decade later and fell in love all over again. Was blown away by all of the extra content in Orta, including those extra game modes playing as the kid and PD1 being unlockable.

Then Zwei came after I got the Saturn and once again, the feels just came back again. It's basically Moebius: The Video Game Series, it's really just pure bliss. Such an organic and beautiful series (not always graphically, but beautiful through its feelings). Outside of Shinobi and Shenmue, this is my favourite SEGA series ever.

Virtua Squad 2, you mean

 

[JonathanNemo]

Panzer Dragoon is the defining Sega Saturn series, by far. People usually hold up NiGHTS or Virtua Fighter as the tent pole series of the Saturn, but to me, Panzer Dragoon is to the Saturn what Final Fantasy was to Sony and Zelda was to Nintendo. It's the reason you get a saturn these days.

I second this as well. It's a series that played well to what the hardware could do with 3D, and it ended on a very timeless gem of a game.

Zwei also shares a level designer with Rez, so anybody familiar with that game's rhythm should feel very much at home with Zwei. I think Zwei's the better constructed game overall, between the storytelling, branching paths, and the second form of the final boss fight. But I don't want to oversell it.

[...] i look back on it as a truly memorable game of that period. aside from the on-foot stuff (which isn't much of the game), [...]

There is a run button to hold down (I think it's B?) that makes the on-foot stuff more manageable. I also find that most first time players don't realize that the NPCs have multiple things to say, and it pays off to talk to them multiple times.

There's also a secrets guide for each disk in The Will of the Ancient's Panzer Dragoon Saga Encyclopedia that I strongly recommend visiting for your next playthrough. There's lots of story to read that you can totally miss, but it really helps the world come alive.

 

[Synth]

it just became obsolete as the saturn went on. VF Kids isn't bad, but it's definitely not in the top 5 3D fighting games for the saturn (Fighter's Megamix, VF2, Dead or Alive, Anarchy in the Nippon, and Fighting Vipers respectively IMO).

I would still like a speeded up version of VF 2, but without the enlarged VF Kids hitboxes.

Dural's head being fishbowl makes me laugh, though.

Yea that game had charm, but with VF2 in existence, there just wasn't any reason to play it. The huge head with tiny limbs made for some awkward fights.

I definitely never felt like I needed a faster VF2 though. The game was already by far the fastest 3D fighter I had ever played (and a good amount faster than I could comfortably react to at the time).. but then when you consider what the PAL competition was (50hz Tekken...) then I guess that's not too surprising lol.

 

[ShowDog]

Well you could skip the first. Unless you love the genre it's hard to imagine it hooking you in 2015.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Virtua Squad 2, you mean

Oh, it was called that in the US, yes? Over here in the UK, I'm pretty sure (but man it was so long ago, I may be wrong) but I'm pretty sure we still had it called Virtua Cop 2. So did the guy at the title screen called it "Virtua Squad 2"? lol. That'd have been funny after playing Virtua Cop 1 so much in arcades back in the day.

 

[JonathanNemo]

Panzer Dragoon Saga is a fun game, but I really don't think it's worth the investment unless you're a collector. And saying "Just sell it when you're done" is a level of risk that I don't feel comfortable in recommending. World/story/characters are great, graphics are a real mixed bag (combat's the best, town is shocking in how ugly it is, and FMV is the usual laughable fare of the era) and haven't aged well, and the combat though original, doesn't have enough depth to stay interesting through the game's relatively short length of around 15 hours. It's a game desperately in need of a remake.

It ain't the first time that you've brought this up, but I'm going to pick a bone with the graphics crit. The game has a nice chunky pixel-3D quality that lacks the usual muddy look of most PlayStation and especially Nintendo 64 games of the time, and it looked quite nice through my Framemeister.

The FMV does look like Reboot, take it or leave it. But I liked the way the on foot segments looked, very much in the same character as the stages of Zwei. Not the same level of detail, though.

 

[sechsterangriff]

Start with Orta OP. It's a great game and has great art direction. If you like it then Zwei.

 

[Krejlooc]

Oh, it was called that in the US, yes? Over here in the UK, I'm pretty sure (but man it was so long ago, I may be wrong) but I'm pretty sure we still had it called Virtua Cop 2. So did the guy at the title screen called it "Virtua Squad 2"? lol. That'd have been funny after playing Virtua Cop 1 so much in arcades back in the day.

The PC versions of Virtua Cop were released under the Virtua Squad names, because of a copyright issue or something. No clue if it extends to the UK, but my longbox VC2 for the PC reads Virtua Squad.

Incidentally, those games controlled really well with a mouse! And today, thanks to things like Glovepie or even the steam controller, you can play them like a normal lightgun game again.

 

[Ceadeus]

Orta.

It's not expenssive and it will gives you a very good idea of the expérience. I don't see why you would pay trillion to play the old stuff. I believe it,s nostalgia over all. It's kind of old! The gameplay is simplistic.

 

[Krejlooc]

It ain't the first time that you've brought this up, but I'm going to pick a bone with the graphics crit. The game has a nice chunky pixel-3D quality that lacks the usual muddy look of most PlayStation and especially Nintendo 64 games of the time, and it looked quite nice through my Framemeister.

Robert has his opinion, but it's not one I agree with at all with regards to panzer dragoon's graphics. Yes, it is lacking in polygons, as all saturn games are. But that doesn't mean it has ugly graphics. A lot of the reason why I think PDS has good graphics, even to this day, are because of the way it uses the native tricks of the saturn hardware well, and how it uses the few polygons at its disposal to suggest things that aren't there. In a way, it's quite analogous to pixel art, the way a single white pixel on a face and suggest an entire eyeball when viewed from across the room. Our brains fill in the image with more detail than is really there. The way Panzer Dragoon budgets the limits polycount is pretty good.

Where it shines, as I said, is the way it uses the saturn's VDP2 for unique fullscreen 2D effects, like applying a sinwave roll to the entire screen. The best examples of Panzer Dragoon still being impressive and pretty are the water. The area you play in that takes place over the ocean with the search lights in the sky that reflect over the water is terrific, and every bit as pretty as anything else from that era.

I think harping on the dated graphics of PDS is missing the point. Of course it has jagged edges, of course it has a low polycount - it's from 1997. It's contemporaries are Final Fantasy VII and games of that sort, not Ocarina of Time or Metal Gear Solid. For the time, with what it has to work with, it does wonders. Played on a CRT television, it still managed to impress me with its visuals. Especially that water...

(I wish I could find a gif or something of the area at night with the search lights over the water... it's such a great effect)

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

It ain't the first time that you've brought this up, but I'm going to pick a bone with the graphics crit. The game has a nice chunky pixel-3D quality that lacks the usual muddy look of most PlayStation and especially Nintendo 64 games of the time, and it looked quite nice through my Framemeister.

The FMV does look like Reboot, take it or leave it. But I liked the way the on foot segments looked, very much in the same character as the stages of Zwei. Not the same level of detail, though.

My graphic complaints are more of an issue with the system than the game itself - Saturn 3D graphics are very much an acquired taste. Even at the time, I thought the game was noticeably worse looking than Zwei (which has the advantage of being on rails). And then you have the town...

Even if the game is technically impressive, I think most people would agree that 3D graphics of that era aren't very good. The games that used 3D best in that era are the ones that took a hybrid 2D/3D approach like Grandia & Shining the Holy Ark.

 

[big_erk]

As someone who's played them all: Panzer Dragoon Saga and Panzer Dragoon Orta. Saga is one of the best RPGs ever made and so overlooked and underrated. You'll love it. Orta is just one amazing game with some truly emotive moments and has Panzer Dragoon 1 and a demo of Zwei unlockable in the game so it's a great place to start. Hope this helps.

Saga is awesome. The reason it is overlooked and under rated is because of availability. The short production run and loss of source code guarantees this. I for one will never part with my copy of this gem.

 

[Krejlooc]

My graphic complaints are more of an issue with the system than the game itself - Saturn 3D graphics are very much an acquired taste. Even at the time, I thought the game was noticeably worse looking than Zwei (which has the advantage of being on rails).

Zwei and Saga run on the same engine, but do different things. The on-foot segments aren't representative of the majority of graphics in the game (there is, what, 3 towns in the entire game?) and are indeed clunky. And the field graphics display the obvious limitation of going from an on-rails shooter that can constantly unload level chunks behind the camera to keep the draw distance in front high (where as, in saga, they let you explore huge expansive areas that hide pop-in with flat 2D backgrounds that are meant to blend in but don't do a terrific job).

It's the battle scenes where it shines. They do unique things with the color palette because everything runs through the VDP that are unlike a lot of tricks you'd see on the PSX or N64. They look quite a bit like treasure's special effects from their genesis games in a lot of ways.

Despite the ways they try to hide pop-in during open field sections, they still have some really interesting moments. The forest on fire under the canopy is one of the most interesting moments, IMO.

The games that used 3D best in that era are the ones that took a hybrid 2D/3D approach like Grandia & Shining the Holy Ark.

I much prefer the battle animations in Shining Force III to SitHA, actually. They were so impressive, especially the later scenarios (which got more VDP tricks than the SF3 we got in the US). The most impressive bit being how they had no loading times at all despite a huge number of animations.

 

[JonathanNemo]

Even if the game is technically impressive, I think most people would agree that 3D graphics of that era aren't very good. The games that used 3D best in that era are the ones that took a hybrid 2D/3D approach like Grandia & Shining the Holy Ark.

I disagree about Shining the Holy Ark; constant frame drops and DKC-ish 2D sprites awkwardly mixed with hand drawn sprites make the whole game feel sluggish in a way that Saga doesn't. But I'll drop making more of a point about this before I derail this thread too much.

I should grab some screens from my Framemeister one of these days, for another thread, just to do a good comparison. Most of what's on the internet has a CRT filter or comes directly from an upscaled emulator, which doesn't really look right to me.

Grandia, I haven't played in the last three years. The reason I'm specifically contending those two games is because I've seen both in the last four months, so I know that it's NOT nostalgy clouding my eyes.

 

[Krejlooc]

I disagree about Shining the Holy Ark; constant frame drops and DKC-ish 2D sprites awkwardly mixed with hand drawn sprites make the whole game feel sluggish in a way that Saga doesn't. But I'll drop making more of a point about this before I derail this thread too much.

I should grab some screens from my Framemeister one of these days, for another thread, just to do a good comparison. Most of what's on the internet has a CRT filter or comes directly from an upscaled emulator, which doesn't really look right to me.

Grandia, I haven't played in the last three years. The reason I'm specifically contending those two games is because I've seen both in the last four months, so I know that it's nostalgy clouding my eyes.

He's right that the games that used the Saturn's abilities the best got a grapple on how to use it's powerful 2D VDP with its transformation VDP to create unique situations. (And, fwiw I dislike the 3D prerendered sprites in Shining Force III a whole lot and wish they had gone with something more like Final Fantasy Tactics for the 2D sprites).

I'm simply of the opinion that Panzer Dragoon Saga uses the Saturn's 2D capabilities well. All the special effects I like from PDS, come from the Saturn's unqiue 2D hardware.

 

[Laevateinn]

I got a Saturn at launch and had a demo of Panzer Dragoon. I was terrible at it so I could never really get past the first stage but despite that the Panzer Dragoon demo was one of my most played games as a kid. It's such a cool series. I didn't know PDS existed and as a 13 year old whose mom would only let get a game now and then would have opted for Shining Force 3 at the time anyway. Nevertheless, I got PDS years later for way cheaper than the going rate. It really has one of the best battle systems I've experienced and was great all the way. I think it's worth the asking price but I would recommend other means if necessary. Everyone should play it.

If other developers could do with the Saturn what Sega could we'd probably have a completely different market nowadays.

That's because it's hyper rare (rarer than Panzer Dragoon Saga) and goes for a fortune (I've seen it sell well above PDS's usual asking price when sold mint) and, unlike PDS, it's not worth playing.

Crap game, only for collectors. I own everything Panzer Dragoon related, including the white Xbox bundle from japan, the ultra rare Panzer Dragoon NV1 disc (never sold in stores), the updated windows 95 longbox copy of Panzer Dragoon, and Panzer Dragoon Mini.

I just checked, there's one for sale on Yahoo Auctions for about $122 for really good condition. That's still way more than I would pay for it but it's not more than PDS although that requires a bit of knowledge in both Japanese and getting something bought from Yahoo Auctions sent overseas.

 

[Krejlooc]

I just checked, there's one for sale on Yahoo Auctions for about $122 for really good condition. That's still way more than I would pay for it but it's not more than PDS although that requires a bit of knowledge in both Japanese and getting something bought from Yahoo Auctions sent overseas.

It fluxuates in price because, unlike something like PDS, there isn't a lot of demand for the game. So you can get it for cheap prices... but if the game isn't for sale in a given moment, the price can suddenly spike and get insane. Even on ebay, right now, you can see the wide disparity in price - there's one going for $150 and another going for $500.

It's a game purely for collectors, really.

It's not the rarest or most expensive panzer dragoon game, however. That is the NV1 version. Those things are unbelievably rare, especially with the full box (well, sleeve really).

 

[JonathanNemo]

He's right that the games that used the Saturn's abilities the best got a grapple on how to use it's powerful 2D VDP with its transformation VDP to create unique situations. (And, fwiw I dislike the 3D prerendered sprites in Shining Force III a whole lot and wish they had gone with something more like Final Fantasy Tactics for the 2D sprites).

That reminded me of Bulk Slash and at least one cancelled Pioneer published game that was a 3D dungeon crawler. Another title in the same vein is Wachenroder, which is probably closer to Grandia from what I remember, with a bit of a steampunk FF6 feel.

But, hmm. Even looking at them, I'm curious if I still like this particular look. 2D on 3D in the Saturn years never blended as well as, say, Cave's later efforts with extremely well animated prerendered sprites.

Maybe my eyes are just trained to better accept that low poly AM2 look. Something to keep in mind when looking to buy Saga, anyway.

Spoiler

well there's my piddly effort to tie this tangent back to the topic at hand

 

[Krejlooc]

That reminded me of Bulk Slash and at least one cancelled Pioneer published game that was a 3D dungeon crawler. Another title in the same vein is Wachenroder, which is probably closer to Grandia from what I remember, with a bit of a steampunk FF6 feel.

But, hmm. Even looking at them, I'm curious if I still like this particular look. 2D on 3D in the Saturn years never blended as well as, say, Cave's later efforts with extremely well animated prerendered sprites.

Maybe my eyes are just trained to better accept that low poly AM2 look. Something to keep in mind when looking to buy Saga, anyway.

Spoiler

well there's my piddly effort to tie this tangent back to the topic at hand

I always like the way Last Bronx pulled off it's "3D" backgrounds. They were all entirely 2D, but operated essentially like dual mode-7 layers with heavy doses of parallax. The end effect is pretty convincing.

Radiant Silvergun also has an awesome mix of 3D with 2D-Faux-3D backgrounds.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I found Panzer Dragoon Saga in a 7 dollar pile of games. But I did not like Saga. So I SOLD IT. YOU CAN NEVER STOP ME FROM NOT LIKING THIS GAME.

That being said, I'd go for Zwei.

 

[Krejlooc]

I found Panzer Dragoon Saga in a 7 dollar pile of games. But I did not like Saga. So I SOLD IT. YOU CAN NEVER STOP ME FROM NOT LIKING THIS GAME.

That being said, I'd go for Zwei.

How much did you sell it for?

 

[SinCityAssassin]

How much did you sell it for?

I undersold it for 310 USD because I am a nice person.

 

[Krejlooc]

I undersold it for 310 USD because I am a nice person.

er, did you hang on to it for several years before selling it? Because it has only been $300+ territory for a relatively recent amount of time. Back in the early 2000's you could get the game for like $150.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

it's also very worth playing, and unlike any other RPG I've ever played. The closest comparison would be maybe Parasite Eve?

The battle system never gets old. It somehow feels like both an RPG and a rail shooter at the exact same time. Nobody says "it's panzer dragoon, only with RPG mechanics." It's Panzer Dragoon RPG. It feels and plays like Panzer Dragoon.

Now that's interesting b/c Parasite Eve is one of my favorites of that era. Does PD Saga have horror-like elements to it? I've only seen snippets of the beginning on YT (to avoid spoilers in the case I ever stumble into playing the game) and it does have qualities that'd lend themselves well to that, from the little I've seen.

 

[Voysa Reezun]

Re: Saga. Do what I (and apparently many others according to the mom 'n pop owners I have talked to) have done: Find a place to buy it, play through it, and sell it back when you're done.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

er, did you hang on to it for several years before selling it? Because it has only been $300+ territory for a relatively recent amount of time. Back in the early 2000's you could get the game for like $150.

I found it 3 years ago and sold it last year. I linked this album before, but it was in this pile.

 

[Krejlooc]

Now that's interesting b/c Parasite Eve is one of my favorites of that era. Does PD Saga have horror-like elements to it? I've only seen snippets of the beginning on YT (to avoid spoilers in the case I ever stumble into playing the game) and it does have qualities that'd lend themselves well to that, from the little I've seen.

No, not really. It doesn't feel like a horror game, it shares a meloncholy atmosphere more like Ico or Ecco the Dolphin, really. And I don't mean the commonly repeated "Ecco the Dolphin is a horror game because the ocean is scary" trope. There isn't a lot going on in the world of Panzer Dragoon. To set up the series, the world basically ended eons ago, and the few surviving humans in the world have lost basically their history. They don't know what happened, only that at one point there was an ancient empire and then a global geological disaster essentially wiped out almost all life, including plants and animals. So the planet is barren and scarred, save for pockets of nomadic humans that live like cavemen and monsters that roam the world (but are treated essentially like livestock).

Really, as the series goes on, it goes more into scifi than horror. But I don't want to spoil anything. But no, the atmosphere is not like Parasite eve, although the battle system is roughly similar. Thats where I make the comparison. The concept of multiple ATB gauges to control your actions, the ability to move and dodge in 3D in real time, a single-party system with a highly customizable weapon instead of party management (your gun in Parasite Eve, your Dragon in Panzer Dragoon Saga). It's not a perfect comparison (Parasite eve places more emphasis on 3D dodging like an action game, where Panzer Dragoon is more about positioning and is rigid) but it's the closest I can come up with.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Orta might be the best one to play last though, considering it's very cheap and the most technically advanced in the series.

We do not speak of Crimson Dragon.

 

[Krejlooc]

Orta might be the best one to play last though, considering it's very cheap and the most technically advanced in the series.

We do not speak of Crimson Dragon.

Crimson Dragon was such an enormous disappointment. I wanted to like it so badly. It really plays nothing like Panzer Dragoon aside from being on a dragon and shooting things.

Also, it might sound weird, but I prefer the single stick control of Panzer Dragoon to the dual stick setup of crimson dragon. Funnily enough, Panzer Dragoon Zwei actually supports a full dual analog setup... but it's more fun to play with a single stick IMO.

 

[G0523]

Definitely start with Panzer Dragoon Orta for the original Xbox. That is playable on the 360 and you can even unlock the first game. If you want to play the other two, Panzer Dragoon Zwei is the next logical choice. PD Saga is the last one and if you have $400-500 to spare, you can buy it. It's only available on Saturn and there were very limited quantities since it came out very late in the Saturn's life.