Rethinking Death
So I am writing this after just watching the excellent documentary made by Dr Parnia’s group at NYU Langone. Not sure when it will be availble to view on demand, but will post here once we know.
I say it was excellent because it was well produced and gave a good summary of where we are to date in terms of our understanding of death in a highly credible manner using mostly scientists or physicians as sources, other than a couple of the NDEs. The video was very well balanced, but unfortunately provided no new scientific data. The conclusion was that studies have as yet been unable to prove the “reality” of NDEs, but neither have they disproved them. There was no detail at all on the AWARE studies, which I found strange.
Despite this, it was clear that Dr Parnia, and all the other scientists shared the view that these experiences were not explained by what we understand about natural processes in the brain. There was a strong undercurrent that dualism is the likely explanation, without explicitly saying that was the case.
I have a lot of respect for Parnia and everyone else involved in this, but I find it extremely frustrating that there is data from AWARE II that shows EEG activity consistent with consciousness during CA and CPR after up to an hour (something he alluded to in the panel discussion), and yet they have never stated whether or not any of these EEG events were in patients who reported NDEs. They know, they have the data, so why not share that? I suspect that they have no EEG data at all in those patients as only a small percentage of the entire cohort had EEG data, and most of those sadly did not survive. Why not say that?
Like I said, frustrating. Maybe the final peer reviewed paper will provide that data, although he closed the discussion by saying “this is a long process, maybe come back in 5 years and we will have something for you!”
AwareofAware 
Yes that and the panel discussion both good.
I like the concept of human consciousness to transcendent consciousness by Robert Montgomery, but that just me.
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Yes, especially the bit about it being squished back inside the body. What we experience is but a fraction of what we are…isn’t that utterly amazing.
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Mr. Williams, I sent you a direct message some days ago because I could not seem to comment again from my desktop computer. Hopefully this will work. I would like to know if you have any news on when this film may be released to the general public. I’m assuming that you went to see it in person. Any information that you can provide will be appreciated.
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Hi,
I saw it on Zoom, and have no idea when it will be released. Sorry I can’t be of more help.
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That’s okay. Thanks for your reply. I wonder if there’s someone in the Parnia Lab whom I should contact directly to ask when the film will be released. Thanks again for the reply.
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I enjoyed watching it. Alot more research is needed
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‘There is data from AWARE II that shows EEG activity consistent with consciousness during CA and CPR after up to an hour’
regular waking consciousness consistent ? And is it the full hour or bursts etc?
If Sam seems to be alluding to dualism being the answer for NDE after having the data hands on, then it can’t be that be that consistent with consciousness needed to create a experience that could potentially explain a NDE. I suppose.
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I enjoyed reading your update, and I do appreciate it. However, I really do not see how having data about there being EEG activity during cardiac arrest would help to prove that consciousness can exist separately from the brain, since an active brain is *needed* to produce an EEG in the first place. Perhaps I am just not understanding your point.
I am a person who holds out some hope that the physical world that we sense is “not all there is,” but I am also a big believer in the scientific method, and I think that a certain amount of healthy skepticism is vital in discovering the truth. I have had the impression from your past posts, Mr. Williams, that you are looking at Dr. Parnia’s efforts through a religious lens — as one who is religious in a traditional and specifically Christian sense. I must admit that this makes me uncomfortable, even though I share your hope that there is something “more.”
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Thanks and welcome.
To your first point. It is the context in which EEG activity is recorded that is everything, and that is what Parnia is withholding. If they were unable to record a viable EEG for any of the patients who reported NDEs, then the EEG data is very interesting from a medical perspective, and allows for all kinds of speculation, but nothing more. However, if they were able to collect EEG data from any of the patients who reported NDEs, then this would be useful. There are two scenarios either of which favours opposing hypotheses:
Scenario 1: EEG showed no waves associated with consciousness. This would provide support for the dualist hypothesis since the patient is reporting conscious recollections when consciousness is proven to be physically impossible.
Scenario 2: EEG data showed periods of activity which are associated with consciousness. This would provide support to the materialist position for obvious reasons. There is a caveat to that which Parnia frequently alludes to…namely that the brain is possibly interacting with other dimensions. His consistent referral to this idea makes me think that he possibly has a case of an NDE with a patient whose EEG had activity, but I do not know this, and it is wrong for this EEG data not be made available. I do not know why he is doing it, but it gnaws at his credibility to keep this under wraps for so long.
As for your comments about bias, I have made no secret of my position on this, and that it would influence how I approach my interpretation of the data. No one is free from bias (not even ChatGPT which has inbuilt bias programmed into it!). Parnia showed his bias on the topics of religion and negative experiences last night.
If my bias makes you uncomfortable, then so be it, but I am honest about it, so you can read everything I write putting your own anti-bias filter on. Moreover I believe that “bias” is based on a rational evaluation of all the data that I as an individual human being have been exposed to, and that includes data and experience of other religions; vast amounts of data from the atheist perspective; factual scientific data on the origin of life, a subject on which my Ph.D. provided me with expert understanding; and then the subjective experience of trying to follow the teachings and example of Jesus, an experience which is corroborated by many of my co-religionists.
I think that Parnia completely misses the point of going to church or Temple…it is primarily to connect with the divine being, or God, and then to learn from this being how to be better humans, and hopefully reduce the number of “uncomfortable” moments in the life review. I can be quite a nasty bugger at times, and it makes me very ashamed to think about how I have sometimes treated others, but I would be much much worse if it wasn’t for my engagement with the Christian faith which is like holding up a spiritual mirror to your face every day. The reflection might appear ugly, but you learn that you are deeply loved, and shown a way to become beautiful.
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I think this is a good point to test our own beliefs about the two scenarios presented. I really don’t see any way to confirm either hypothesis. But one might rule out one or the other belief given certain data, once it arrives. I think you should make a post trying to do that. Personally, I suspect their will be intermittent brain activity, but not enough to support normal consciousness. How this related to vivid awareness during NDE is a mystery until we can record the brain from before the heart stops and until it resumes normal activity again.
Is it ludicrous to claim one needs that data though to rule out dualism?
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
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did they talk about the latest studies that indicate waves eeg compatible with conscious activity after cardiac arrest?
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Only in passing.
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Yes, good documentary and talk. It surprised me in the video the amount of time they gave to NDE cases. And the final statement of Parnia, saying that death is not what it seemed, but it seems to be the beginning of something new.
In the panel, for me the most relevant part was at the end also, when Parnia explained how after cardiac arrest, EEG goes flat in a few seconds “as a security mechanism”, but after that in some cases those gamma waves can be observed. He used the same term than in the pre-print Aware II article: “They are consistent with consciousness”, explaining that those gamma waves are seen normally when you are active and fully concentrated on some idea. He said also that those gamma waves emerge as a result of the disinhibition, or lack of “brakes” that the brain looses during the dying process. And that these situation allows access to new capacities normally blocked. Thus you can access to your entire life in the life review, which you cannot access normally in the waking state.
I think Parnia is trying to integrate the gamma waves findings in different studies with the idea that the NDEs are not strictly generated by the brain and that the self/consciousness survives after death.
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Hello Alejandro! I’m Eduardo. I have not seen the video, as I don’t understand English.
You say: that Parnia said the EEG deflates in a few seconds “as a safety mechanism”, but after that in some cases those gamma waves can be observed.
What Parnia says is observed during CPR? Or without CPR? I do not think it is the latter, because they are not going to be with a dead patient with EEG installed “quietly” observing how the EEG recordings evolve, and after having observed, they start with external cardiac massage and ventilation.
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Only during CPR. None of the other studies – rats, or humans in comas, show anything meaningful beyond 30 seconds. This is extremely important considering the numbers of NDEs that have been reported to occur before CPR has started.
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Hola Eduardo!
I think Parnia spoke in general in that moment, without specifying CPR/not CPR status. As you know AWARE II is strictly CPR but my impression is that he accepts other studies (human/animal) as a valid source of that gamma activity even after cardiac arrest without CPR. Which for me is not so clear.
Abrazos!
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I felt that much of what he said on this, while thought provoking, was entirely speculative in the absence of EEG activity directly associated with an NDE. If he has this, show us, otherwise it is much “pissing in the wind” for want of a better expression.
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Hello Ben. Thanks…And this?? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006899399023513?via%3Dihub&fbclid=IwAR09My2A2-4itYljjxAgjHWnqBodgRZrp2vsofYiMGbb69pF9eUtIxqlmb8
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Just reading the abstract is very interesting. the suggestion, if I am summarising it correctly,is that while consciousness if associated with gamma waves, gamma waves are not necessarily always indicative of conscious awareness. In other words, the gamma waves in AWARE II, or rats etc may be utterly meaningless in terms of identifying the presence of conscious awareness. I have always felt this was the case, and while hypothesis generating, the dat with gamma waves proves absolutely nothing…it lends support to an understanding, nothing more. But without direct association with an NDE, it is all just …ing in the wind 🙂
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Ben, if Parnia states in the Pre print that: “However, the finding of paradoxical lucidity and enhanced (heightened) realism (reality) when brain function is severely altered or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory” or something like that, it must be that in at least 1 of the 6 NDEs he did not see gamma or beta waves…Otherwise he would be speaking without any substantiation.
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Esto quería decir Alejandro….Tú dices que Parnia dijo que “después de la parada cardíaca el EEG se desinfla en unos segundos “como mecanismo de seguridad”, pero luego en algunos casos se pueden observar esas ondas gamma”.
¿Me pregunto y te pregunto: esto qué dice Parnia se observa durante la RCP…? ¿O sin la RCP…? No creo que sea esto último, porque me imagino que no van a estar con un paciente muerto con EEG instalado “en silencio” y tranquilamente observando varios minutos cómo evolucionan los registros de EEG, y después de haber observado buen rato, comienzan recién entonces con la RCP aplicando masaje cardíaco externo y ventilación…Sería una locura y una negligencia médica superlativa. Qué me dices? Cómo lo ves?
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Respondí arriba en inglés. Totalmente de acuerdo con que nunca van a esperar a iniciar la RCP por ningún estudio.
(I answered above in English. Totally agree that they are never going to wait to start CPR for any study)
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thanks so much!! Un abrazo!!
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Gracias por responder Alejandro! Ese es el punto, la falta de claridad de Parnia. En el estudio de Zemmar los mismos autores dieron unas 5 o 6 razones por las cuales esas ondas gammas podrían no ser conciencia….creo que Parnia tendría que explicar por qué el no cree que las otras 5 o 6 razones deberían descartarse y por qué elegir la alternativa de que refleje conciencia. Además en ese estudio de zemmar el momento asumido como del paro cardíaco es dudoso…
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Is there real contradiction between them ( NDE/EEG) in the end? If brain scans shows increased activity let’s when you feel love – does it describe it ? Or you eat chocolate – will brain activity says you something about it taste 🤓
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Can someone post the full documentry of Rethinking death when it is posted. Thanks
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In my opinion, even in the presence of EEG compatible with consciousness during NDE after cardiac arrest, it would not be enough to give a significant answer, NDEs occur in many other situations, trauma, coma, anesthesia…
how is the eeg in these cases???..
sorry for my english!
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EEG is very active in most of those cases, except anaesthesia. That is the reason that materialists discount them so readily, and most NDE research has been focused on patients in CA .
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Any thoughts on that?https://neurosciencenews.com/death-nde-consciousness-23161/
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Yes, and they have been posted many times in the last chat. However, to stop people asking me about it I am going to create a new post to address this.
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Sorry for the repetition, truth is i follow your blog with much respect for quite a few years but something always slips my attention.
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No worries,and thanks for following the blog and respecting it. You gave me the excuse to write another post I have been itching to create. In fairness I should have covered this study off in a separate post earlier, but it really says little that is new, so didn’t feel it was worth it.
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I think, all is simpy unprovable, it is just the way it is. Those who had NDEs know(!) they had them, they don’t need or search for evidence. And many unexplained and miraculous things during everyman’s life fall in the same category of ‘Unprovable’. And I think that’s great.
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I do wonder if we are not “meant” to prove this things. A part of the meaning of life is take a leap of faith at some point and that forms the bridge to the next life.
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I checked youtube. Does anyone know when the documentry Rethinking death will be released. I thought it was on May 9. I wonde why I can’t view it on YouTube or Dr. Parnia website yet
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No idea. It was presented on May 9th, but live, no idea when they will make it available via streaming.
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It looks like it will be shown again here:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/screening-of-rethinking-death-exploring-what-happens-when-we-die-tickets-690909016467
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Great. Well worth a watch.
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A recording of the recent screening can be seen here. Some sound issues in the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/live/aTs46P0oIHc?si=5Ld8mUKVATQ7MfRQ
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